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  #201  
Old 29th November 2020, 23:34
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Johannes
Night raids were plotted by radars, so it was possible to fairy accurate note the victor and victim.
Re Western Front, BoB was a mess. Then later, victories were matched to wrecks, but sometimes with dubious accuracy. Also a number of aircraft fell down to other reasons, but were attributed to own fighters. Not an easy thing to work out now, because of lack of narratives.
Franek
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  #202  
Old 30th November 2020, 08:58
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krichter33 krichter33 is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Has anyone worked out Eder's claims to losses?
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  #203  
Old 30th November 2020, 17:39
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I am working on the JG 52 aces' claims in Hungary in 1944-45. Long project... Hartmann is just one of them.
Gabor
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  #204  
Old 1st December 2020, 03:19
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
I am working on the JG 52 aces' claims in Hungary in 1944-45. Long project... Hartmann is just one of them.
Gabor

I really hope you'll share with us here when you are done, Gabor. This is amazing knowledge and fascinating history
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  #205  
Old 1st December 2020, 16:42
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Thank you Nick. That's the plan, but it will be several months... :-( I hate time pressure and time-limitation, but I think all of us suffer of that...
Gabor
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  #206  
Old 5th December 2020, 13:01
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

In my opinion Hartmann worked his "over-claiming" initially with 7./JG52 with Werner Puls before being joining 9./JG52.

If our Russian losses experts are correct(and we have nothing to dispute this) then 9./JG52 claims are less reliable, one could say "over-claiming" had been going on there throughout 1942.

In my opinion Hermann Graf worked his "over-claiming" initially with Leopold Steinbatz, Heinrich Füllgrabe, Friedrich Brückmann ans Ernst Süß. Then there was a change in August/September 1942 to Johann Kalb and Hermann Wolf.

When Hartmann joins 9./JG52 in my opinion he continued his "over-claiming" from Autumn 1943 until January 1944 with Herbert Bachnick and our old friend Hermann Wolf, after this time there is no obvious alliances, Hans-Joachim Birkner is alleged to have been his longtime wingman, but there is not much evidence of this........yet still the "over-claiming" went on.

How did Hartmann know that he could rely on wolf, some kind of masonic handshake?

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #207  
Old 5th December 2020, 15:41
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Perhaps we will never have a full and correct explanation to some pilots' overclaiming habit. What I know for sure, is that the very same soviet combat records support some pilots claims with crazy accuracy, but disproof others in a shocking scale. This tells me that the soviet records (back then and there, while the war was still going on) were authentic and fine, the problem is with some pilots' claims. Honestly, now, as I go through all records again for eg. Lipfert in deep analysis, I just laugh when I see the minor differences between his claims and the soviet verified losses. Very often only 0, 2, or 5 minutes difference in claim times; Lipfert was crazy sharp! Calculating the 2 hrs Moscow and local time difference, the remaining time is very often only 0 - 2 - 5 minutes! Certainly we can take into consideration what was written down. If Hartmann's records were wrong, even if he really shot down a plane, we cannot verify his claim. I think that between 90-100% and only 25-30% accuracies there are BIG differences!

Gabor
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  #208  
Old 5th December 2020, 21:07
BenFolk BenFolk is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hello

Yes, the Russian documents tell the truth.
However, one thing is certain, on the evening of June 4 the 5 VA had 8 P-39 few.
Even the No.20 after the aerial battle in which the No.36 was lost, had to go to the workshop. She only made training flights until June 7th, until she flew on June 8th.
Maybe Hartmann met her after all.
Secondly; for the Russians a loss occurred only when the aircraft, the pilot, was lost. Damage like the Germans 60% could be repaired. And losses that were too great were not seen well in the upper staff and also in the political offices.

BenFolk
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  #209  
Old 6th December 2020, 12:04
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Gabor

Think we are in agreement. I see patterns in pilots claiming, and basically it's the same type of pattern for the "over-claimers", also even when they are not "over-claiming" I can usually see it's because they are with an unfamiliar wingman. Also of note is that in the East a Staffel hardly ever flew as a whole, it was usually a rotte or schwarm, this would explain how only certain pilots within a staffel might be "over-claiming".

Saddest thing is that I suspect the "over-claimers" caused hyper-inflation with regards to decorations. Considering the differences between the amount of "kills" a pilot needed to get a Ritterkreuz at any particular time, I wonder if Gruppenkommandeur sometimes didn't recommend a certain person for reward, because he suspected something.

There was an adjutant under Barkhorn's command that found a loophole i.e he was claiming the "kills" awarded to the unit as a whole....not to any one person, apparently Barkhorn was horrified and put a stop to it, but sadly I don't know if any punishment was handed out.

All the best

Johannes
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  #210  
Old 15th March 2021, 19:40
BenFolk BenFolk is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20.

unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.
For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk
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