Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, it is true, no such massive dog fights like over the Channel or Germany, but still such a combat could be a complete mess. So without a narrative it is hard to tell if overclaim was due to a heat of a combat or intentional fraud.

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

What I am doing at the moment is checking pilots claims against other from the same staffel and see who claims with who. Have just completed Joachim Kirschner as he has been fingered as an "over-claimer", initially his claims with 5./JG3 are not spectacular, and are not unless he is claiming the same time as Hans Grünberg and Arnold Bringmann, if another 5./JG3 pilot claims the same time as Kirschner then it's usually just a single claim, if a whole bunch of 5./JG3 pilots claim, then again usually just one or two claims. When only Grünberg and Bringmann are the other claimers then it's multiple. With Grünberg in particular it's in a ratio of two for Kirschner to every one of Grünberg's. Grünberg's claims without Kirschner claiming are again singular.

Other pilots within 5./JG3 do not seem to be involved, in fact all Kirschner's A.S.M claims are either without any other pilot claiming, or the guys I personally do not think were involved claiming.

Kirschner then transfers to a unit(Stab.IV./JG27) who's claims match Allied losses relatively well. So how does he continue "over-claiming", answer is "Heinrich Bartels of 11./JG27 who he seems to borrow.....Kommandeur's privilege I would guess, but also an abuse of power. In fact I have not checked, but I put money on the newly formed fourth gruppe of JG27 being the least honest gruppe of the Geschwader as it seems that the outsiders that formed it brought bad habits with them.

However the question that hasn't been answered is how Kirschner new of Bartels inclination to "over-claim", as said before perhaps they had a "Freemasons" type handshake, or wore a yellow button or something....who can say.

I have also looked in Heinrich Erhler, but alas it's hard to workout, so as he was Franz Dorr's witness quite a few times I checked him(I have all his witnesses names) anyway Helmut Neumann would have been in collusion with him, but so were most of 7./JG5, it was endemic sadly. Of note also is how often pilots from other Staffels and even Gruppe were the witnesses.
Surely JG5's claims would be the easiest to scrutinize in the East.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Hi Johannes
I can imagine a situation when leader and wingman knew themselves so well, and trust each other, that they could go in a whatever melee could have happened. The bigger melee the bigger overclaim. So the point is, that each dog fight should have been analyzed in detail. I have tried to do so for a number of combats over ETO 1940-1945, and on several ocassions, the actual course of events seemed much different to what transpired from claims & losses data. My observation is, however that narratives are just essential. Sadly, there are so few from the German side. Of course, it happens that narratives seem a fiction. I recall a one of a German pilot claiming his unit being attacked by 150 Thunderbolts. Only a squadron of Mustangs was around.
All the best
Franek

[HGabor]

Johannes,

Here is the completed list for Düttmann for 1944-45 in Hungary. Later claims were already discussed, note the earlier ones. On October 23, 1944 six 5 VA, 131 GvShAP IL-2s, led by Capt. Derkachev attacked German tanks at Szolnok-E, when JG 52 encountered them. Hptm. Helmut Lipfert (wingman: Bruno Steins) immediately downed two IL-2s (S/N: 10620, 302820, - Lapinskii POW, Kralkin KIA): 1 exploded midair - Lipfert flew into its debris, 1 lost its tail and crashed immediately. 3rd plane (S/N: 1873563, Gv.Lt. Victor Petrovich Zubov) did not crash, it was only damaged in the dogfight, but was scrapped after landing back at their base, so more or less it can be considered a "victory". I assume this was Düttmann's.

Gabor

21/10/1944 - 10.56 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
21/10/1944 - 10.58 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
23/10/1944 - 15.34 - POTENTIAL "VICTORY" - Il-2mH. (S/N: 1873563)
30/10/1944 - 13.21 - OERCLAIM - MiG-3 (Yak-9)
30/10/1944 - 13.24 - OERCLAIM - MiG-3 (Yak-9) - 1 Yak-1B (S/N: 21151) was lost to flak at 13:50 local.
31/10/1944 - 08.21 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
31/10/1944 - 14.17 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
31/10/1944 - 14.19 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
01/11/1944 - 14.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
01/11/1944 - 14.06 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
01/11/1944 - 14.09 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Yak-9 (Yak-1b, S/N: 08175)
01/11/1944 - 14.03 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
07/11/1944 - 16.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
13/11/1944 - 09.02 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Yak-11 (Yak-3, S/N: 3529218)
13/11/1944 - 09.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
13/11/1944 - 12.20 - OERCLAIM - Il-2mH.

08/03/1945 - 16.24 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
08/03/1945 - 16.27 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
09/03/1945 - 13.51 - OVERCLAIM - La-5
09/03/1945 - 13.53 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
11/03/1945 - 13.23 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 13.26 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 15.21 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
14/03/1945 - 12.55 - CONFIRMED VICTORY - Boston (S/N: 43-21519)
16/03/1945 - 13.55 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.56 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.58 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.59 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 14.01 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Il-2mH. (S/N: 18874124)
18/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 11.52 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
19/03/1945 - 14.56 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 15.03 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - La-5 (S/N: 39211166)
20/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - P-51

[HGabor]

Combat diary of 5 VA, 7 GvShAD reported on October 23, 1944 that the 131 GvShAP lost 2 IL-2s (10620 and 302820 - both to Lipfert) indeed, while Zubov's No.1873563 returned to base without gunner, Sgt. Nikolai Mihailovich Gusev, who probably bailed out from the plane during Düttmann's attack and went missing. Plane landed with the pilot alone and by November 4, 1944 it was written off by the regiment and was sent to a major, "factory repair" to 38 ОТТР. So looks like it was a "so-so" victory for Düttmann. Note, that serials 302820 and 1873563 were in "short form", without the irrelevant factory part (Factory No.18 and 30: 18-7-xxxx, 30-xxxx)

Gabor

[Nokose]

22 August 1941
Staraya Russa
6 Il-2 243 ShAP (3 Il-2 loss)
Leutnant Gerhard Barkhorn 6./JG 52 V-11 (5) 12:25

[GMichalski]

hello,

i found this in internet:

Barkhorn

29,10.42 4./JG 52 Oblt Yak-1 2km nördlich Altebinal 2km N Altebinal 1242 1200 E J 75

Possibly Podpolkovnik Dmitriy Leontyevich Kalarash (in a LaGG-3) of 402 IAP, 236 IAD red paint - 820201. Said to be KIA in a Taran or WIA and returned home, DOW

According to known data, the Directorate had 2 Yak-7s, one of them was flown by the navigator of the 236th IAD Major D. Kalarash. According to archival data, Kalarash died on 10/29/1942. SI Feoktistov cites data that he was shot down by G. Barkhorn, if this is so, then there is such an application, but it refers to square 95 732, Terziyan-Altubinal region. And from it to the place of fall more than 16 km! Could a downed or downed plane fly so much? Or this is the second plane, the traces of which we cannot find yet.

По известным данным в Управлении было 2 Як-7-х, на одном из них летал штурман 236 ИАД майор Д.Калараш. По архивным данным Калараш погиб 29.10.1942. С.И.Феоктистов приводит данные, что его сбил Г.Баркхорн, если это так, то такая заявка имеется, на относится она к квадрату 95 732, район Терзиян-Алтубинал. А от него до места падения более 16 км! Мог сбитый или подбитый самолёт столько пролететь? Или это второй самолёт, следы которого пока не можем найти.

Resch squared 95 722 knocked down Molchanov in LaGG-3, his engine at Lyokha's doors has been washing with rain for the second year ...

The departure of Kalarash was at 13.10, 20 minutes later we approached the front line, i.e. 13.30. The goal is to cover the attack aircraft in the Goith area. Time difference Moscow + 1 hour with Berlin time. The Germans had only one Oblt application at this time. Gerhard Barkhorn 12.42 (13.42 Moscow time). In principle, everything is the same.
Considering that the plane was controllable, it is quite logical that the pilot pulled the plane over Semakha and jumped over his territory. So there may be no mistake in the application.

Реш в квадрате 95 722 сбил Молчанова на ЛаГГ-3, его мотор у Лёхи под дверями второй год моется дождиком...

Вылет Калараша был в 13.10, через 20 минут подошли к линии фронта, т.е. 13.30. Цель - прикрытие штурмовиков в районе Гойтх. Разница во времени московском + 1 час с берлинским временем. У немцев в это время только одна заявка Oblt. Gerhard Barkhorn 12.42 (13.42 по мск). В принципе все совпадает.
Учитывая то, что самолет был управляем, вполне логично, что пилот перетянул самолет через Семаху и прыгнул уже над своей территорией. Так-что может и нет никой ошибки в заявке.

http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru. http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/forum/...-kalarash.html

http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/forum/krylya-vojny-samoljoty-ljotchiki-ekipazhi/976-yak-7-dmitriya-kalarash.html?start=%1$d

http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/forum/....html?start=20

info of the claim by Johannes Mathews,

regards

[GMichalski]

and this:

The certificate was drawn up according to information by 13.00 on October 30, 1942. Knowing the "mechanism" for compiling such certificates, it is equally likely that the plane in question crashed on October 29th or 30th.
On the 30th, the only sergeant, Ivan Ivanovich Alekseev, perishes, his plane was found , but no remains were found.
But on the 29th, two sergeants from the 269th IAP - Vorganov and Borisov.

Our colleague kirche worked through the Germans' applications until October 30, 1942.
The only close claim is
LaGG-3 4./JG 52 Oblt Barkhorn Gerhard - 10km östlich bahnhof Schatschi - 11.50 (1000) - 95783 The
actual place of the fall in square 95781. The square 95783 indicated by the German is adjacent.
Schatschi is most likely a perverted spelling of Shepsi, according to the distance indicated in the German word, the distance of 10 km from Shepsi to the place of the fall corresponds to reality. The only German writes the direction relative to Shepsi - east, and in fact, northeast.
The nearest applications for October 29, 1942 are located much further.
St. II / JG 52 Lt Haberda Helmut Yak-1 raum 25km östlich Tuapse 15.39 (1600) - 95763
6./JG 52 Lt Krupinski Walter Yak-1 raum 20km östsüdöstlich Tuapse 15.40 (1500) - 95791

Справка составлена по сведениям к 13.00 30 октября 1942 года. Зная "механизм" составления подобных справок, равновероятно что самолет о котором идет речь, упал 29-го или 30-го октября.
30-го погибает единственный сержант - Алексеев Иван Иванович, его самолет найден, но не обнаружено останков.
А вот 29-го, двое сержантов из состава 269 ИАП - Ворганов и Борисов.

Наш коллега kirche проработал заявки немцев по 30 октября 1942 года.
Единственная близкая заявка
LaGG-3 4./JG 52 Oblt Barkhorn Gerhard - 10km östlich bahnhof Schatschi - 11.50 (1000) - 95783
Фктическое место падения в квадрате 95781. Указаный немцем квадрат 95783 - соседний.
Schatschi это скорее всего извращенное написание Шепси, по расстоянию указанному в завяке немца, расстояние 10 км от Шепси до места падения соответствует действительности. Единственное немец пишет направление относительно Шепси - восток, а по факту северо-восток.
Ближайшие заявки на 29.10.1942 г. расположены значительно дальше.
St.II/JG 52 Lt Haberda Helmut Yak-1 raum 25km östlich Tuapse 15.39 (1600) - 95763
6./JG 52 Lt Krupinski Walter Yak-1 raum 20km östsüdöstlich Tuapse 15.40 (1500) - 95791

http://iskatelklada.tuapse.ru/forum/...elka-tuby.html

sorry about the google traduction...

regards