Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Andrei Demjanko]

Nick

I specifically mentioned "in daylight" both times. I know of night bombing of North African ports which LW fighter pilots were in no position to prevent

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

You will also find much about the critical loss of the tanker Tergestea off Tobruk, in the opening stages of Second Alamein. She was bombed and torpedoed within sight of shore and in daylight. The Navy complained that fighter escort would have prevented this (a couple of LG 1 Ju 88s were assigned instead)

Beside the fact, that Marseille was dead by this time, I./J.G. 27 was based more that 500 km to the east from Tobruk. How its pilots were able to prevent her loss is beyond comprehension. Withdrawal of fighter units from the frontline for point defence of the ports meant robbing ground troops of air cover. So it is naturally that those talks led to nothing. It was a problem which had no solution. And it was certainly beyond the grasp of Marseille or whoever else of LW fighter pilots to alter strategical situation

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andrei Demjanko

Nick

I specifically mentioned "in daylight" both times. I know of night bombing of North African ports which LW fighter pilots were in no position to prevent

The point is not about the pilots' choices or individual capabilities, it is about how Göring, Kesselring and Flifü Afrika set priorities and deployed their forces. (And Rommel's fault for pursuing objectives that his supporting air forces could not meet).

Beside the fact, that Marseille was dead by this time, I./J.G. 27 was based more that 500 km to the east from Tobruk. How its pilots were able to prevent her loss is beyond comprehension. Withdrawal of fighter units from the frontline for point defence of the ports meant robbing ground troops of air cover. So it is naturally that those talks led to nothing. It was a problem which had no solution. And it was certainly beyond the grasp of Marseille or whoever else of LW fighter pilots to alter strategical situation

It's not about Marseille personally or the pilots or I./JG 27 as a unit; no one can blame fighter pilots for pursuing individual glory if they are officially encouraged to do so. It's about the Luftwaffe's (and Regia Aeronautica's) failure or inability to secure the very supply chain on which their presence in Africa depended. Equally, without functioning ports the ground forces couldn't be sustained in Africa either, so air cover at the front was, in that sense, a secondary issue.

We are, incidentally going way off-topic as regards Hartmann's career.

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

it is about how Göring, Kesselring and Flifü Afrika set priorities and deployed their forces.

They were correct in their assesment. There was no question of effective night fighter activity, no matter how much units involved, without adequate ground organisation and ground control, non-existent in the theatre. It is not coincidence that I./N.J.G. 2, "Intruder" unit, least dependent from GC, was sent to the Mediterranean. Decision to rely on Flak units was sound.

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

And Rommel's fault for pursuing objectives that his supporting air forces could not meet

I'm completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Equally, without functioning ports the ground forces couldn't be sustained in Africa either, so air cover at the front was, in that sense, a secondary issue.

I think this is wrong dilemma. With the limited forces at their disposal the Axis only faced the choise of where their supplies would be lost - at sea, during unloading from ships (or MFP's at Mersa Matruh), in M/T convoys on a road to the frontline or at supply dumps in the vicinity of the frontline.

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

We are, incidentally going way off-topic as regards Hartmann's career.

Agree

[HGabor]

Did Erich Hartmann claim any victories over Hungary AFTER December 9, 1944? If so, exact details (date, location, local time) plz?
Thanks,
Gabor

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

With "over-claimers" something else appears, that being "huge daily claims", yet even something else, that being big numbers e.i "100" "200" "300" days this meaning that on the day they get their "200th" it's a big day i.e Hartmann 193-202, 291-301, Rudorffer is another notable "big score claimer", the most notable high scoring pilots not having "huge daily claims" would be Günther Rall and Helmut Lipfert…….. it's very noticeable indeed, in fact with the purely honest guys they hardily every achieve 5+ in a day(except night-fighter pilots)

The greatest 5+ daily claimers were:- Nowotny, Hartmann, Rudorffer and Emil Lang.

Hans-Joachim Marseille it contrary to any patterns the other pilots show, and contrary to the theory that "big daily scorers" were all "over-claimers"

Kind Regards

Johannes

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Did Erich Hartmann claim any victories over Hungary AFTER December 9, 1944? If so, exact details (date, location, local time) plz?
Thanks,
Gabor

I./JG 53 was in Veszprem until 15 March 45. Hartmann was Kommandeur. His Rottenflieger Sommavilla has left an account of his 337th on February 4.

[HGabor]

An interesting and very intense day. Too bad, not much details on his claim, only as 'Yak-9'.

337 4.2.1945 - Yak-9 Stab I./JG 53 - OVERCLAIM? - in Veszprém area?

This day the 17 VA (3rd Ukrainian Front), which was operating in the Veszprém - Székesfehérvár - Lake Balaton area lost:

1 A-20G-36-DO 'Boston', downed by Hungarian Bf 109 fighters (17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP, S/N: 43-10075, Lt. Shuvaev crew) near Sárkeresztes, but crashlanded at Zsámbék, Budapest-W.
2 IL-2m3 (951, 989 ShAP, plus a 3rd IL-2m3: No.1874886 was badly damaged, but repaired in 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 672 ShAP.)
3 La-5FNs (two 848 IAP La-5FN in dogfight, one 116 IAP La-5FN in accident, plus two 194 IAD La-5Fs written off (No.39215033, 39215251) as a result of PREV. DAYS'(!) actions.
NO Yak loss this day in 17 VA!!!

(Very intense tank-battle in the Székesfehérvár-N area for the city, dozens of soviet M4A2(76)W Shermans lost in the 3 UF, 1st Guards Mech. Corps to Panther Ausf. Gs of I./Pz.Rgt 24. Desperate street fights in Buda, in the Western, hilly side of Budapest - Citadella and the Royal Castle area.)

17 VA, despite of the very heavy dogfights (eg. on February 4, 1945) in the Székesfehérvár-Csór-Sárkeresztes area, lost only 1 (Tbilisi-built) 659 IAP Yak-3 in dogfight (S/N: 310137) on February 20, 1945 near Baracska in the whole month!!!!! Several Bf 109, Fw 190 claims, but only a single Yak-3 loss in dogfights in the entire month of February... Another Tbilisi-built Yak-3 (also from 659 IAP) went missing (MIA) near Esztergom the day before on a recce. mission on February 19, 1945 due to engine problem. (S/N: 310155, not combat related)


5 VA (2nd Ukrainian Front) was focusing on the Budapest area. On February 4, 1945 they lost:

3 IL-2m3 (130 and 131 GvShAP)
2 La-5FN (92 IAP, 178 GvIAP)
1 La-7FN (179 GvIAP)
2 Yak-9 (31 GvIAP)

Same list by cause:
Flak: 1 IL-2, 2 La-5
Fighter: 1 IL-2, 1 Yak-9
Unknown (MIA): 1 IL-2, 1 Yak-9

(List missed the single La-7 loss, but it was due to flak. La-7FN, S/N: 45210566, hit by flak over Buda, disintegrated in air, while dive-bombing and strafing German defence positions. Gv.Ml.Lt. Lebedev was KIA.)

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP Yak-9, S/N: 1515321, lost at 12:50 local at 4500 m, while patrolling at Budapest-W, 5 km. 6 Yaks vs. 8 Bf 109 near Csepel-island, crashlanded at Rákoscsaba. Pilot, Gv.Lt. Ivan Andreevich Yangaev, injured, taken to field-hospital in Isaszeg. His leader, Vidanov was MIA.

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP Yak-9, S/N: 2015350, lost at 12:50 local. 6 Yak, supporting soviet troops in Buda, combat with Bf 109. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Petr Yakovlevich Vidanov was MIA. His wingman, Yangaev crashlanded and got injured.

Without the details of Hartmann's late claims, it is very difficult to compare records.

Gabor

[HGabor]

17 VA fighters and ground attack plane(s) lost in dogfight on February 4, 1945:

17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39215046, '46', lost in the Sárkeresztes-W area at 16:00 local at 2000 m, 6 La-5s in combat with Bf 109s, flak. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Vladimir Zacharovich Voronov was MIA.

17 VA, 194 IAD, 848 IAP, La-5FN, S/N: 39212754, '54', lost in the Sárkeresztes-W area at 16:00 local at 2000 m, 6 La-5s in combat with Bf 109s, flak. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Boris Petrovich Lazarev was MIA.

17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 11532, '27', lost in surprise fighter attack of 2 'Fw 190's from the sun over their own airfield at Kiskunlacháza, Budapest-S. Ml.Lt. Ivan Alexeevich Dzhanaev - Sgt. Angilenko crashlanded at airfield, gunner badly injured. Engine was later re-used in another plane, so only AC frame was written off, engine serial not mentioned.

Probably none of these dogfight losses was lost to Hartmann as 'Yak-9'.

(By the way, famous Spanish IL-2 pilot, Lt. Celestino Martínez Fierros (№19353, KIA) flew in the same, '3-stripes' IL-2 regiment (989 ShAP) and was lost to flak on March 9, 1945 in the Káloz area in his IL-2, S/N: 10586, fuselage No.'19'. He joined the soviet AF after the Spanish civil war, and was killed in Hungary in the spring of 1945 in the 3rd Ukrainian Front, 17 VA, 989 ShAP. See tail markings of their unit.)

Gabor

[Russell]

Other claims over Hungary
No details as to type or time, but this is what the Luftflotte 4 Tagesmeldung contained in the 6th Army records (found at Information from German Documents in Russia 500
Inventory 12472 - Army Nos. 1-10, 1937 - 1945 Case 382. Documents of the operational department of the headquarters of the 6th Army: the magazine ...
Case 382. Documents of the operations department of the headquarters of the 6th Army: military journal, Case A, vol. 29: daily reports for 05. - 12/31/1944 - reports on the situation of the operational and reconnaissance units of the Fretter-Pico army group)

summarize as what the claims were on the following days

23 Dec 44
Luftlage Frame Number 430/579
Sorties 287 of which 146 FW 190 ground attack, 26 tank attack, 6 Me 210, 91 fighter, 18 recce
Success 1 tank, 8Lkw, 36 besp Fahrzeuge,
8 aircraft shot down, 2 damaged
6 aircraft lost.
Comment
II/JG 52 a/c
Yak-9 1048
III/SG 10 IL-2 1230, 1233, 1455
3 short. Probably all II JG 52.

24 Dec 44
Luftlage 447/579
Sorties not listed
Success 14 tanks 10 Lkw, 9 besp. Fahrzeuge
8 aircraft shot down
Special Mentions. On 23 December 1944 achieved Hptm Hartmann his 328th aerial victory, OberstLtn Rudel his 2400 sortie.
Nachmeldung Luftlage 471/579
Sorties 179 ground attack, 12 tank attack, 4 Panzerschreck, 142 fighter 16 destroyer, 20 recce
Success Add 17 tanks 100 vehicles destroyed
Add 19 aircraft shot down, plus 2 with out witnesses and 7 damaged. Hptm Hartmann his 331 aerial victory. Possible total of 19 aircraft shot down
Comment Total claims, either 19 or 27 aircraft shot down, it is unclear whether the later report included the previous 8 claims in the total, or the late reports claims were in addition to the previous 8 claims.
II/JG 52 IL-2 1425
a/c 329th, 330th, 331st by Hptm Hartmann
I/JG 53 Il-2 0908, 1103, 1358, 1401, 1405, 1405,
La-5 0926, 0932, 1410
III/SG 10 IL-2 1105

5 or 13 short, also dependent on whether Barkhorn made claims on the 24th or 25th.

25 Dec 44
Luftlage 472/579
Sorties 164 assault, 99 fighter, 18 recce.
Success 2 T-34, 76Lkw destroyed
23 aircraft shot down with witnesses, 2 without witnesses, 2 damaged.
Lost 1 fighter and 2 a/c missing.
Special mention Hptm Hartmann 5 victories, 336 victory. Major Barkhorn 4 victories, 289 victory.
Comment
II/JG 52 Yak-9 1208, 1215
a/c 9 by Hartmann/Barkhorn (unless Barkhorns includes 2 supposedly on the 24th.)
I/JG 53 IL-2 1155, 1433
La-5 1346, 1347, 1433, 1435

I/SG 10 R-5 1220
IL-2 1510
Leaves 4 or 6 short.
Nothing for the rest of the year presumably bad weather hindered operations.

Regarding the 4th Feb 45

The source for Hartman's claim is Erich Somavilla who was his NO 2 on the mission. His flight log may indicate the time of the action. I have a vague memory it has been sold on E Bay

Otherwise, all I have is Tubel of I/JG 53 made two claims, a IL-2 and a La 5 at 1645 and 1650, Ewald claimed two La-5 and Elias Kuhlein of 5/JG 51 a Yak 9. What else II/JG 51 may have claimed is unknown to me. I have not looked for any Tagesmeldung for 1945 as yet.

Generally for Nov Dec 44 the daily totals mention are more than the known Luftwaffe claims, what I have yet to do is see if the difference is what the Hungarians were up to.

Regards

Russell

[Nick Hector]

More excellent work,

Is anything known about the famous VE Day victory claim?