Unpublished, short-lived I./KG77 insignia during the WC?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I've got two photos in the EOE DB that show a previously unpublished insignia on the noses of individual 1./KG77 and 2./KG77 Do17Zs, both probably taken about the time of the WC. This suggests more than a personal or Staffel-level emblem, but one that might have been used on all, or most, I./KG77 aircraft during the WC. The photos show this insignia on 3Z+JH and 3Z+AK. I've found no example of this insignia in any of the reference pubs back through Karl Ries.

Does anyone have a close-up view of this insignia, which appears to be a devil or some sort of a creature riding a bomb. Examples from aircraft other than those mentioned above would also be helpful, especially ones that might establish it's use on I Stab or 3./KG77 aircraft.

After the FC and into the early BoB, KG77 progressively re-equipped with the Ju88, so I suspect that this emblem was short-lived, and replaced on any unit aircraft using it by the familiar Geschawader flag insignia.

Can anyone help confirm this, with either photos or documentation, and help define how widely this was used?

Thanx,

[obdl3945]

Hi, Larry...

I hesitated to post this thumbnail, as I have a feeling this is one of the photos you're referring to. But then again, others may not have seen it, and others may have their memories jogged by it... so I decided put it here for everyone's benefit.

The code is largely unreadable, but I do think there is a 'shadow' of '3Z' on the fuselage, and to my eyes at least, an 'N' as the last letter, making this potentially a 5.Staffel machine, but it was your decription of a devil or some creature riding a bomb that prompted me to look. There is something under the canopy which I think could be something on a bomb. I tried working it through Photoshop, but sadly, to no avail in improving what we see.

I'm sure this was a relatively recent posting by Ed West in the last few months from one of his e-bay compilations, and that the original compiler of the photo album had a connection to KG77. There were other photos as well, but I can see nothing on them that shows anything worthwhile.

A long shot, but like I say, it may prompt others to look through their own material.

Regards,

Paul

[Larry Hickey]

Paul,

Yes, that's one of my photos although I own an original print. Looking carefully at that, the code is 3Z+AK, making it 2 Staffel. The other aircraft was obviously shot down during the FC. The insignia on the nose of that one is similar, but may not be identical. I'll see about posting and enlargement of this on the board. We need more examples than these two, however, to confirm this as a new insignia used by I./KG77.

Regards,

[obdl3945]

Larry...

I'm glad you have the original to look at, because I was really straining my eyes looking at this thumbnail ! I thought the last letter was 'N' but it is rather illegible, so 'K' sounds good to me, especially as your source is an original . At least now I have the proper identity for this aircraft... . Would be good to see any other related material you're able to post.

Regards...

Paul

[ChrisS]

Hi Larry

Is this another one? Source is an old eBay auction.

Regards

Chris

[Larry Hickey]

Chris,

Yes, that is exactly the same emblem as on 3Z+JH. The identity of the a/c is in no doubt, since the codes are very clear on this nose-to-tail image. My question is, what is this an image of and what might be its color scheme? Is it the same as on 3Z+AK (posted above)? This looks like some kind of creature riding a bomb, or is it a bird or bat?

Thanks a lot Chris for taking the time to dig this out and post it, as it's yet another example of whatever the emblem is. I presume that the 190 refers to the W.Nr. of the a/c.

Does anyone else have further examples of this insignia?

Regards,

[obdl3945]

Larry/Chris...

I have this picture from when it was posted here, again I believe by Ed West. I also have it captioned as 'Fledermaus', which I would not have done had there not been a reason to do so, ie: most likely, a caption on the reverse side of the picture. I haven't got a view of the back of the picture, but would you have this perhaps, Chris, or anyone else out there?

'Fledermaus' in German means 'bat', but I'm not sure it's riding a bomb, or anything else for that matter. It simple looks to me as though it's banking sharply to port ! Admittedly, on the first picture I posted at the top of this thread, there does look to be something underneath the bat, but this does not seem very evident in Chris's close up of the forward fuselage area.

Regards

[edwest]

It appears to me this is a bat banking with claws in yellow or white. The wispy area in the back is a puzzle. A look at Ketley & Rolfe shows a bat emblem for 7./KG 4 and I./JG 300.




Ed

[obdl3945]

Ed,

Ah... ! I'm so glad someone else has commented on the 'wispy' bit at the back... .

I know it was a different unit, namely KG76, but their 1. and 4.Staffeln did have unit badges reflecting a certain degree of 'toilet' humour, so to speak, and was wondering if perhaps our Fledermaus was perhaps indulging in a little of the same... ?

Also, I know little about the anatomy of bats, but I would've thought this wee guy's claws were kind of far forward to be healthy... perhaps his fangs/teeth (whatever bats possess!), maybe even stylised somewhat, into a smile... ?

Paul

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Okay, thanks to your help, we're now getting to the bottom of this. Here is the image of this insignia on the Do17Z 3Z+JH that force-landed after damage from fighter attack during the WC. Thanks to frequent board contributor Rudi, who has recently joined the EOE Working Group, for this imagery:

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview...=15&u=11993385

We've now got enough clues to put this one together. This is a bat, which has some kind of ferocious fanged face and a wing extended, clutching a light-colored falling bomb between its legs. The rear part of the bomb is evident in this image, not clearly visible in the other images. The front of it is there but is in shadow. Taken together, however, I think we can be pretty confident what it is. The "Fledermaus" clue clinches it for me. We still, however, need to get a clear close up image of the design and determine how widely this was used within I./KG77. I suspect that this design lasted no more than two to four months maximum, and probably didn't long survive the end of the Western Campaign. An 8./KG77 Do17Z, 3Z+GS, with the familiar Geschwader flag insignia was shot down on July 3, 1940, in a Kent hop field, and it appears that by early in the Battle of Britain the unit's aircraft probably carried that insignia as it steadily converted to the Ju88 through the BoB. Incidentally the insignia for 3Z+GS still exists in a collection in Britain. Very nice to see it in color.

Besides Rudi, I also want to thank "Robert" for his help with this (another regular poster to the TOCH board and member of the EOE WG). He first suggested the connection between the two photos to me that has led to this posting.

So, let's all find some more examples of this and a close-up photo of this insignia. That will nail this one.

Incidentally, if anyone knows the circumstances and full identity of the crash of the Do17Z, 3Z+JH, during the WC, I'd like to hear about it. We don't have a really good candidate for this incident at present.

Regards,