About German sources for Kuban air battles history Apr.-Jun.1943

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, friends!

About German sources for Kuban air battles history Apr.-Jun.1943.
Who know, is Ultra files in the UK National Archive (TNA) contains details of the subject in question similar to this:
<http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-luftwaffe-operations-report-by-fliegerfuehrer-afrika-23-nov-41/>

In the past decade I had ordered some documents from BAMA and many documents from NARA but nothing from TNA yet.

It seems the following sources about Luftwaffe are exists:
Remnants of some KTBs (StG2 and maybe some other)
Some LF4 documents on NARA rolls (but they are almost useless)
Mentions about air war in the Army and Navy documents
GQM loss list
List of German fighter victories
NVM data (but as far as I know they are unavailable now)

Published sources:
Some overview works like Plocher’s “The GAF versus Russia 1943”
Some Geschwader chronicles (JG52, JG3, KG27, KG55 etc)
Very useful reference books written by De Zeng and Stankey about bomber and ground attack units.
Memoires.

Maybe I forgot some sources. But it is clear that all mentioned sources are insufficient for real analysis. Even such basic day-by day info as a quantity of sorties is known for the few days only. It isn’t surprise, of course, due to loss of 95% Luftwaffe papers in the end of war. So the Ultra records are the last hope.
Even such basic day-by day info as a number of sorties is known for the few days only.

A huge volume of Soviet documents about Luftwaffe activity exists (AA defense detailed data, ground forces reports, VVS data about air combats and many other documents). They give a picture about Luftwaffe activity day by day and sometimes minute by minute. But they have obvious drawbacks, like any documents of any country about enemy activity.

By the way, who saw the JG52 Monatserfolgsberichte for Mar.-May 1943? Did Mr.Barbas’s volumes about JG52 contain all sufficient info from these documents?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello all,

nobody can help with the topic theme?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Johannes]

Hi Andrey

With regards to Bernd Barbas's Jg52 data for March-May 1943. His primary source is the micro films(which we worked together in 1999-2000), but the April 1943 micro films are often under exposed to the point of being unreadable, sometimes just shadows appear, however each micro film page is a maximum of twenty claims, and usually the bottom quite readable, so by actually writing out each page with whats readable it is possible to mark down exactly what can be read to give clues about what is unreadable! Also the handwriting on the micro films at this point is pretty bad, but Bernd has such a collection of flugbuch that we knew what should be there and matched up against what was readable!

Bernd knew most surviving Jg52 pilots personally, and was able to identify pilots from photo's, and dating these knows who was flying when, and with which staffel.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you very much, Johannes!

Very interesting! It was an impressive work really.

Claim lists are from Abschussfilme des RLM. Do you saw the JG52's monthly reports (Monatserfolgsberichte) too? Does they have some detailed info or the monthly sums only (number of sorties etc)?

Kind Regards,
Andrey

[Johannes]

Hi Andrey

No monthly sorties on the Micro Films just claims on this type. I don't have losses, but know they exist as Bernd has them. I could ask about sortie number as he might know he has all sorts of document. I have 1945 KBT papers and they mention daily sortie numbers, so why not for 1943!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hi Johannes,

Originally Posted by Johannes

I could ask about sortie number

If it possible ...
Thank you in advance

Originally Posted by Johannes

I have 1945 KBT papers and they mention daily sortie numbers, so why not for 1943!

Sorry, what is it "KBT"?

Kind Regards
Andrey

[Johannes]

Hallo Andrey

KBT are secret(geheim) papers of the Luftwaffe from 1945. Not all dates or units are covered, and usually only top aces mentioned. Various papers covering various Luftwaffe operations, a lot of it is rubbish, but the occassional paper has 1945 sortie numbers, place, what for, who made claim details, but very few!

Regards

Johannes

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Johannes!

Maybe somebody know, does the ULTRA records contains info about Kuban air battles in 1943?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Thank you, Johannes!
Maybe somebody know, does the ULTRA records contains info about Kuban air battles in 1943?
Best regards,
Andrey

Hi Andrey,

The nearest British intercept station to the Kuban in early 1943 was in Cypress, I believe. In other words, not very close but not terribly far away either. In early 1943 the Luftwaffe was falling back from Soldatskaya, Mineral'nyye Vody, Maikop, Salsk, Gigant, etc., to already prepared bases that had been in existence since summer 1942, e.g., Krasnodar, Krymskaya, Anapa, Kerch, Bagerovo, etc. Those bases already had fully established landline communications capabilities, i.e., teletype, and therefore had only occasional need to resort to radio use. The intercept operators on Cypress and elsewhere could only pick up radio transmissions and not those sent by teletype.

I have seen and worked with the Air Ministry A.I.2.(b) airfield cards for that area and time and these included relevant material from ULTRA. There was very little information at all and that fact leads me to believe that the daily reports that you seek were probably sent by teletype and therefore were never intercepted. I have not seen the HW 5 material for that period so I cannot say with certainty that you won't find anything. I just think it's doubtful.

I truly hope someone will step forward who has seen the HW 5 intercepts for the Kuban area for early 1943 and give an opinion on what they saw.

Regards,

Larry

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, Larry!

Thank you.
I just look at TNA (Kew) site. You are right. The search give few references from HW1 only, such as:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...0&Summary=True

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...0&Summary=True

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...accessmethod=0

And almost nothing between March and September 1943. If the interactive search in TNA is well organised, the situation with ULTRA Kuban records is pitiful.

=========

Thank you, Larry, for your's and Mr.Stankey's very useful reference books. Do you plan to make new volumes?

Best regards,
Andrey