German who shot down my dad's plane

While researching the loss of my dad's B-24 in Aug 1943 I came across the following at www.joebaugher.com:

40606 (44th BG, 506th BS, "Timba-A-Ah") shot down by Bf 109G-6 flown by Uff Fritz Willinger of JG3/12 Aug 16, 1943 near San Fele, Italy. MACR 15549 and 2451. 5 KIA, 5 POW.


None of this information was new except for the name of the German pilot given credit: Willinger. I assume this information came from German records? I emailed Mr. Baugher but did not receive a reply. Also, the B-24 survivors all reported a large number of German fighters attacking in three waves. How was Willinger given credit? Thank you.

[Nick Hector]

Hi Dover Dave,

Basically the way it's been done is like this:

Known circumstances of the B-24's loss + info from German aerial victory claims = Fritz Willinger looks like he was most likely the pilot that downed your dad's plane. And that's how Joe Baugher has reported it on his website.

From my own listing, I have it entered like this:

Fritz Willinger's claim. Location:near San Fele PQ 51274/14 Ost @ 5500m. This one said to be 42-40606 "Timba-A-Ah" of 506th BS, 44th BG. Crew of 1/Lt. Charles A Whitlock Jr, 5 KIA and 5 POW

Martin Mueller's claim. Location:6km W of Melfi (PQ 51212) @ 5500m. This one said to be 42-40664 "Teggie Ann/Honey Chile" of 515th BS, 376th BG. Crew of Col. Keith Compton 8 POW, 1 evaded capture

Herbert Kutscha and Adolf Hoffmann's claims. Day's losses include B-24D-5-CO 41-23817 "Suzy Q" (shot down near Reggio di Calabria, by a Bf109) of 67th BS, 44th BG 67th BS also lost B-24D-25-CO 41-24229 "Buzzin Bear" . 515th BS of 376th BG lost B-24D-45-CO 41-40319 over Foggia and 68th BS, 44th BG lost B-24D-53-CO 42-40373 "Natchez Belle".
...which is my way of acknowledging that I don't yet know enough about Kutscha and Hoffmann's claims other than the remaining losses are possibly attributable to them. Plus, hopefully further research on my part or someone else's will narrow down the possibilities.

Please bear in mind, that a great many attempts to match up a specific claim with a specific loss need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Cheers
Nick

[Tony Kambic]

Dave,

Joe Baugher's lists are wonderful and amazing but it is his endeavour to which many contribute. As Nick said, the data was provided based upon known circumstances which either he researched or someone provided to him. At the very bottom of the page is a 'reference' link, to which you can browse and possibly locate whom provided that info to him.

Below is the claim list from Tony Wood for 16 Aug 1943, Med. theatre:

16. August 1943
Jafü Süd-Italien

16.08.43 Ltn. Herbert Kutscha: 26 12./JG 3 B-24 5 km. S. Atella: 5.000 m. (Basilicata) 12.51 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.55

16.08.43 Uffz. Martin Muller 12./JG 3 B-24 51212: 5.500 m. 12.53 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.56

16.08.43 Uffz. Rudolf Hoffmann 12./JG 3 B-24 2854 Film/ 14 Ost: 5.500 m. 12.55 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.57

16.08.43 Uffz. Fritz Willinger 12./JG 3 B-24 51274 / 14 Ost: 5.500 m. 12.59 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.58

16.08.43 Uffz. Friedrich Scheer 8./JG 53 B-24 25 km. S. Malfi: 5.500 m. (Basilicata) 12.44 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

16.08.43 Uffz. Rudolf Wannek: 3 9./JG 53 B-24 S.E. Malfi: 5.500 m. (Basilicata) 12.46 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.295

16.08.43 Uffz. Jens Bahnsen: 18 8./JG 53 B-24 10 km. S.W. Potenza: 3.000 m. 12.47 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.29

16.08.43 Ofw. Günther Seeger: 40 7./JG 53 B-24 Forenza: 6.000 m. 12.50 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

16.08.43 Uffz. Kleinert 7./JG 53 B-24 S. Palazzo San Gervasio: 3.500 m. 12.51 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

16.08.43 Fw. Helmut Kuehl: 13 9./JG 53 B-24 5 km. S. Montemilione: 4.000 m. 12.53 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

16.08.43 Ltn. Martin von Vacano: 3 9./JG 53 B-24 5 km. S. Fossiata: 5.000 m. (Potenza) 12.55 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.297

16.08.43 Uffz. Otto Zendler: 1 8./JG 53 B-24 25 km. S. Potenza: 4.000 m. 12.55 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

16.08.43 Uffz. Georg Amon: n.L. 7./JG 53 B-24 25 km. W. del Colle: 5.300 m. 13.05 Film C. 2031/II Anerk: Nr.-

Supplemental Claims from Other Sources:
16.08.43 Fw. Heinrich Porth: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 - 12.53 * Reference: JG 3 Lists f. 353

16.08.43 Ltn. Karl Bolte: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 - 12.58 * Reference: JG 3 Lists f. 353

16.08.43 Ltn. Hans Iffland: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 - 12.59 * Reference: JG 3 Lists f. 353

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Well, there is a major problem with Willinger claim: it is on the Tony Wood claim lists, but this is now outdated and the latest source for German fighter claims, the Jagdverbande series by Prien, is only showing four claims by IV./JG 3 this day:

12./JG3 Lt. Herbert Kutscha B-24 (26.) 12.51 5 km südlich San Matteo, 5.000 m 21 B
12./JG3 Lt. Hans Iffland B-24 (1) 12.53 PIQu. 14 Ost / 58251, 5.500 m 22 1!
12./JG3 Fw. Herbert Pokeuskc B-24 (1) 12.55 PIQu. 14 Ost /6854.5.500 m 23 B
12./JG3 Lt. Hans Rachner B-24 (1) 12.59 PIQu. 14 Ost /58271,5.500 m 24 B

No more Willinger.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

To be complete, here are the Germans claims of IV./JG 3 and III./JG 53 this day, from the Prien book (for III./JG 53 there is the same number of claims but with one different name and some differences in location and claim number):

16.08.43 Uffz. Friedrich Scheer: 5 8./JG 53 B-24 25 km. S. Melfi: 5.500 m. (Basilicata) 12.44
16.08.43 Uffz. Rudolf Wannek: 3 9./JG 53 B-24 S.E. Melfi: 5.500 m. (Basilicata) 12.46
16.08.43 Uffz. Jens Bahnsen: 17 8./JG 53 B-24 15 km. S.W. Potenza: 3.000 m. 12.47
16.08.43 Ofw. Günther Seeger: 40 7./JG 53 B-24 Forenza: 6.000 m. 12.50
16.08.43 Ltn. Herbert Kutscha: 26 12./JG 3 B-24 5 km südlich San Matteo: 5.000m 12.51
16.08.43 Uffz. Werner Reinhardt: 1 7./JG 53 B-24 S. Palazzo San Gervasio: 3.500 m. 12.51
16.08.43 Ltn. Hans Iffland: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 PlQu. 14 Ost / 58251: 5500m 12.53
16.08.43 Fw. Helmut Kühl: 11 9./JG 53 B-24 5 km. S. Montemilone: 4.000 m. 12.53
16.08.43 Fw. Herbert Pokeuske: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 PlQu. 14 Ost /6854: 5500m 12.55
16.08.43 Uffz. Otto Zendler: 1 8./JG 53 B-24 S. Potenza: 4.000 m. 12.55
16.08.43 Ltn. Martin von Vacano: 4 9./JG 53 B-24 5 km. S. Fossiata: 5.000 m. (Potenza) 12.55
16.08.43 Ltn. Hans Rachner: 1 12./JG 3 B-24 PlQu. 14 Ost /58271: 5500m. 12.59
16.08.43 Uffz. Georg Amon: 2 7./JG 53 B-24 15 km. S. del Colle: 5.300 m. 13.05

So we have 13 German claims against 8 US losses (7 of 44th BG and 1 of 376th BG), this is not unusual in battles against US bombers that went down not easily (and even rather good compared to other battles).

But it is also possible that Italian fighters participated in this battle. My sources are only about German fighters so I have no idea.

I appreciate the help. I'll poke around a little more but will probably limit it. I'm finding that looking for answers often unearths even more questions. Thanks again!

[Nicholas Hoffman]

Dover Dave, thanks for posting this question. The pilot, Charles Whitlock, is actually my Grandfather (my Mom's dad). I'd be curious to know who your dad was in the crew, and also to see if you have any other information about the crew.

Thanks for posting this.

[SALERNO1943]

I'm looking for a B-24 crashed 16 aug 1943 in south Italy. It have 3 men KIA in it. I believe can be TIMBA-A-AH. Please note that 2 airmen deceased for no good open on chute. Someone can help me with correct location of crash site? I have doubt about San Fele... Thanks in advance.

[Russell]

Hello All

Regarding Laurent's post above, the list of German claims is what I believe is the most up to date, and is what the MAW team have. The only Italian claims on the day were for Spitfires.

Cheers


Russell