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  #1  
Old 23rd October 2017, 00:06
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Gentlemen,

I remember reading somewhere in one of the "Over The Front" magazines,a person commented that Leutnant Rudolf Windisch's 20+ WWI air-to-air victories didn't matched up to known Allied losses over the Western Front. How serious was Windisch's victories being disputed? I read that most of his victories were disputed.

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 24th October 2017, 12:19
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Edward

I know nothing about Windisch or his supposed 'dishonesty' but since he basically spent his whole career fighting the French, I guess it is up to them to tell us how and where each and every aircraft of theirs were lost. I doubt they are capable of doing so, at least not up until now.

That means we end up pretty much in a stalemate, since we can find out (and know) what their losses were when pilots/crewmembers were killed and probably also wounded, but not when their actual aircraft were lost without casualties, ie the same situation we actually face with the Luftstreitkräfte.

It is impossible, again as far as I know, to verify 100% Allied claims against the Germans unless there was a casualty or serious wound. In the same vein it is impossible to verify all German claims against the French.

I would welcome anyone who could show me complete French losses, including serial numbers, during WW 1.

From a general basis it feels odd that Windisch should be able to claim 22 victories without some kind of verification from elsewhere. Of all the combatants in WW 1 I think, since I am not sure, the Germans were the most careful when awarding victories. Most combats on the British Front took place on the German side of the line, so much "easier" to verify. Don't know how they performed against the French, but I doubt the Germans resorted to some kind of "Trenchard" doctrine in those sectors, so it would be interesting to know why Windisch was able to get away with it and even be awarded the Pour le Merite.

Cheers
Stig
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  #3  
Old 5th November 2017, 19:57
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knusel knusel is online now
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Hello Edward & Stig,

can you tell me which aircraft Windisch flew from January 1918 until he received a Fokker D.VII ?

Michael
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Old 10th May 2018, 06:53
natttuppen natttuppen is offline
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Mr Hsiao, can you give a source for the statement that most of Lt d R Windischs victories were disputed? If indeed they were, he must have had friends/protectors in very high places.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:28
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Stig,

If you cross-reference the casualties mentioned in, The French Air Service War Chronology 1914-1918 Day-to-Day Claims and Losses by French Fighter, Bomber and two-seat Pilots on the Western Front/Frank W Bailey & Christophe Cony (Grub Street,2001) with Windisch's biography/claims list in, Above The Lines/Franks,Bailey & Guest (Grub Street,1993), some claims do possibly match up, in the opinion of the authors.

Col.

Last edited by Col Bruggy; 10th May 2018 at 18:35.
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Old 10th May 2018, 19:56
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

hi,
very interesting post,
i know little about his claims but seems than i only find 5...
if you need the info let me check the sources,

regards
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Old 16th May 2018, 05:14
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your response so far. To GMichalski, yes I do need the info please.

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 16th May 2018, 10:58
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Good morning,

luckily, Windisch was a Blue Max winner which guarantees him being covered in a future volume of Lance Bronnenkant's marvellous BLUE MAX AIRMEN series.
I'm looking forward to it.
Michael
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Old 21st May 2018, 18:10
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GMichalski GMichalski is offline
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Wink Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

6 19-nov-17 Jasta 32 SPAD Laval #4268, Esc. Spa 65, Capt. O. de Montero-Torres, MIA* red spad http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/...ed-spad-2-fer/


7 03 Jan 1918 Jasta 32 Balloon Villers 72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK

15 11 Apr 1918 Jasta 66 Bréguet 14 S of Noyon Esc. Br.129, Cpl. Grebil, MIA & Asp. E. Carron, MIA*

18 03-may-18 Jasta 66 Balloon Juvigny 88e Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. R. Lériche, OK

20 15-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Trosly-Loire Esc. Spa.265, Lt. J. Chotard,KIA & Asp. J. Fropo,KIA

http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...ic.php?t=19052
http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...ic.php?t=19086

sorry can´t find more sources to compare but its a beginning,
regards
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"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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  #10  
Old 22nd May 2018, 02:53
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Jim Oxley Jim Oxley is offline
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Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories

Edward, if WWI claims are your thing, I would suggest you raise the matter over at The Aerodrome Forum. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/

Those guys have an amazing knowledge of losses and claims.
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