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  #1  
Old 7th June 2018, 20:46
Merlin Merlin is online now
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Unit code for SAGr 127

Three Ar95 from 1./SAGr127 escaped with their crews to Sweden in September 1944. All three were flown with unit codes 6R+xL, which was usually the Staffel letter of a third Staffel. Another source also gives 6R+xL codes for Ar95 from 1. Staffel.

Does somebody has informations (from photos, log books or loss data) whitch Staffel letters were flown by the two other Staffeln of that Gruppe?
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Gerhard Stemmer
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Old 7th June 2018, 23:19
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Hello Gerhard,

according to Bo Widfeldt "The Luftwaffe in Sweden 1939-1945" the three Ar 95 A-5 WNr. 2350 (6R+BL), 2346 (6R+LL) and 2351 (6R+UL) belonged to the 3./SAGr 127.

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Leo
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Old 8th June 2018, 09:51
Merlin Merlin is online now
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

The book is not correct, the Ar 95 was flown from March 1943 until October 1944 only within 1./SAGr 127. Furthermore the two other Staffeln were formed into NSGr 11 in October 1943.
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Old 12th June 2018, 22:52
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Interesting Gerhard

I assume you mean the unit is not correct and not the codes?
Unfortunately Bo Widfeldt has dropped out of contact to me. I will ask if anyone has a new e-mail

Even worse, it is stated he has left all his files to individuals who run a site but also never answers any questions.....

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Stig
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Old 17th June 2018, 13:41
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Afternoon Gerhard

Unfortunately Bo Widfeldt is no longer capable of any feedbacks to his works, due to age and illness, which also explains why he has not been reachable for quite a while.

I talked to an individual from SwAHS at quite some length and we agreed that all basic stuff in Widfeldt's books are from the Swedish War Archives but he also must have added other details from sources available to him.

It feels reasonable that his statement regarding the Ar 95 which came to Sweden were listed as belonging to 3./SAGr 127 since that then followed the basic rule of 3. Staffeln using the ID code L. I must emphasize that this is a personal opinion!!

Without checking the actual war archives, this is as far as I can get.

B Rgds
Stig
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Old 17th June 2018, 19:12
Merlin Merlin is online now
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

According to the "combat readiness files" the Ar 95 was flown from March 1943 until October 1944 only within 1./SAGr 127.
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Old 17th June 2018, 23:29
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Gerhard

I don't believe Bo had access to any of the records you and others have access to now, hence my opinion that he added 3./SAGr 127 since the letter L corresponded with what he knew at the time. If SAGr 127 is mentioned in the Archives as such, I don't know, but it feels likely.

Since, by the time the three aircraft escaped, there were no longer any 2. or 3. Staffeln remaining (as per your own statement), it seems a bit silly to me that the escapees should have stated they belonged to this 3.Staffel, so I doubt that information is to be found in the War Archives. On the other hand it cannot be entirely ruled out that the escapees were former crews from the 3.Staffel and may in such a case have mentioned this particular Staffel during interogation. But I am now more and more moving over to guesswork, and that is rather pontless, as I see it. I have already changed the unit listed to 1./SAGr 127 in his book.

I have not located any relevant photo of the three aircraft confirming their given codes, but I am convinced the codes stated were noted down by Swedish personal correctly at the time.

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Stig
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Old 18th June 2018, 08:37
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is online now
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

The logbooks of the Finnish Air Surveillance units located at Tallinn until September 1944 contain a lot of Ar 95 flights, which seem to be flown with SKZ approximately till mid-September 1943 and after that with 6R+xL
The following SKZ are found:
DK+UD
DK+UE
DK+UG

DK+UL
DK+UM

DK+UO
DK+UQ

DK+US
DK+UT

DK+UV
DK+UW

DK+UY

DK+UZ
The following KZ are found:
6R+AL
6R+BL
6R+CL

6R+DL

6R+EL
6R+FL

6R+GL
6R+HL
6R+IL

6R+KL
6R+LL
6R+NL

6R+UL
6R+TL
Unfortunately no correspondence exists between SKZ and KZ of these aircraft. Please note that these codes my contain typos, because the logbooks are hand-written and obviously at least party based on verbal conversation by phone.


Based on the above there is a strong possibility that 1./SAGr. 127 used code 6R+xL.


Matti
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  #9  
Old 18th June 2018, 10:26
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Very nice listing Matti

Seems to answer Gerhard's request in full, except why 1./SAGr 127 actually used the letter L as their designator. Had they been from Latvia or Lithuania there would at least have been an obvious reason, but not now.

Thank You
Stig
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  #10  
Old 18th June 2018, 15:53
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Unit code for SAGr 127

Hello Stig,

two corresponding SKZ and KZ are known. Bo Widfeldt’s book page 15:
„It should be noted that the three Arado Ar 95 A-5’s belonged to the 3./See Aufklärungs Gruppe 127 (intelligence gathering) based at Reval. … According to original papers, two of the aircraft had been recoded. The 6R+BL (Werk Nummer 2350) was coded DK+UL until August 1943, and 6R+UL (W.Nr. 2351) was DK+UM earlier.“

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Leo
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