May 14th 1940 and few little things

[Petitpoucet]

Hi,

Few days ago, this forum showed aggressive attacks. I didn't want to react at this time, the discussion was impossible.
But i'm French, and i was not really pleased with what i read. Attacks against "the guy"becam attacks against french pilots and french Armée de l'Air.
So, for beginning, please excuse my poor english, and be sure that i don't want to be aggressive. I'd just like to answer to small points.

_For example, when i read that french officers kept for themselves victories claimed by polish pilots, i'd like to answer by another question : what happen in other Air forces when pilots claim more victories than the aircrafts effectively destroyed ? Some are confirmed, the others no. One error is possible, but many polish and czech pilots became aces during the battle of France, so i cannot admit this sentence as a generality.

_I read it and i can confirm it : there were no operationnal "Groupes de Chasse" (fighter groups) at villacoublay airbase when it was bombed in early June 1940. So, 30 fighters, all right, but how many armed, and how many operationnal pilots ? Who to give orders ? And what about the alarm, when was it given ? So many questions before concluding anything.

_May 14th 1940 : According to "secret" sources, four Battles from Squadron 142 were destroyed by GC III/7's Morane 406s. And the french pilots claimed Henshel 126s ...
Yes !!! Why not ?

The first to write that had a theory. This one, Arnaud Gillet, worked on original archives and did not find in the Luftwaffe any losses that matched. So, he concluded that they destroyed four Battles lost by the RAF in the same area.
But he made a mistake, Henschel 126s were detached in the Wehrmacht, and losses do exist. To name him, Jean-Yves Lorant found them.

"But Henschel 126s... " wrote someone. Seven pilots involved...
I was very sad, mister Brian, when i read your intervention. Were you really serious ?
I hope it was just the "Grozibou's effect".

Friendly,

Lionel Persyn

[robert]

Hi,

I think the best way is just to ignore some stupid opinion. Is just waste of time to try discuss with people, who have not idea about some subjects and have no arguments to support their opinions.

Warm Regards

Robert

[Franek Grabowski]

Lionel

Originally Posted by Petitpoucet

But i'm French, and i was not really pleased with what i read. Attacks against "the guy"becam attacks against french pilots and french Armée de l'Air.
So, for beginning, please excuse my poor english, and be sure that i don't want to be aggressive. I'd just like to answer to small points.

_For example, when i read that french officers kept for themselves victories claimed by polish pilots, i'd like to answer by another question : what happen in other Air forces when pilots claim more victories than the aircrafts effectively destroyed ? Some are confirmed, the others no.

The point is not about confirming (crediting) victories, but about crediting other pilots with victories achieved by Polish pilots. There were few such cases described by the Polish airmen in reports filed for Polish authorities.

One error is possible, but many polish and czech pilots became aces during the battle of France, so i cannot admit this sentence as a generality.

No, there were not too many Polish aces for a very simple reason. Only a few pilots were send to operational units and saw only a limited combat.

_I read it and i can confirm it : there were no operationnal "Groupes de Chasse" (fighter groups) at villacoublay airbase when it was bombed in early June 1940. So, 30 fighters, all right, but how many armed, and how many operationnal pilots ? Who to give orders ? And what about the alarm, when was it given ? So many questions before concluding anything.

This is one single case, but there are literally dosens of such accounts. Are all of them unfounded? They were published years ago, yet nobody in France bothered with them. Certainly, there were some positive remarks, but I would say they were in clear minority.
I understand you have been in touch with Lansoy, is he still alive? A pilot of his unit, Łaszkiewicz, wrote memories, no doubt based on his personal diary, and provided a critical insight into a life of French Grouppe de Chasse. I believe it was this unit visited by Fonck, and according to Łaszkiewicz, the former was most critical about French fighter pilots. Is it anti-French propaganda?

[Juha]

Hello Petitpoucet
thanks for the info. One technicality
Quote:"Henschel 126s were detached in the Wehrmacht..."

You probably wanted to say that they were detached to the Heer (Army). Wehrmacht was the armed forces of 3rd Reich, consisting Heer, Lutfwaffe and Kriegsmarine (Navy) and probably also Waffen-SS, but I'm not sure on the last one.

Juha

[Petitpoucet]

Thanks Robert for your nice message, and Thanks Juha for your kind remark. So, "detached in ground units" could be better.

Franek, i think it will take me more time to answer to you. But i think the discussion can be interesting.

First of all, in France, do you know that every pilots who fired an ennemy aircraft before it felt was credited with a complete victory ? For example, with the poor 7,5mm guns on their Curtisses, they were often a lot to destroy a Henshel 126 or a Heinkel 111.
Second point : i can understand that a pilot could be disappointed when one of his claim was not confirmed. But to say that french officers stole victories obtained by polish pilots, i think it is just a nonsense.
I studied a lot of reports, they are clear, and i never read or heard about something like that.
Could you give me some dates, some facts ? You have a lot of them as i can undestand.

About Villacoublay, and many other cases : just remember one word in France in june 1940 : disorder. I just tried to explain what happened in Villacoublay, but now, i don't really undestand what you want to tell me.

"They were not many polish aces..."
You're right. there were much czech aces because they joined groups equipped with better aircrafts (H-75, for example). On may 10th 1940, there were only four groups equipped with Curtisses, and the first one with new D.520 was operationnal two days later.
So, many Polish pilots used bad aircarfts (Caudron 714, MS 406) because they were the only ones available, but obtained many victories.
Many of them would become aces in the RAF where Hurricanes and Spitfires were available.

Laskiewicz joined a new formed group, the GC III/2, leaded by a great man, Cdt Geille, but he was not a great fighter pilot. The officers who leaded the two squadrons were not the best examples, but the group had great sub-officers. So i think i was not an anti-french propaganda, but the critiscim of his own group, and its commanding officers.

Hope i answered to all your questions,

Lionel

[David Sumerauer]

Hello all,
I can only add that in Czech literature there are signs that some Czechoslovak pilots attached mostly to Morane equipped squadrons were highly critical primarily to the French higher command and even Czech higher officers (non-flying). The criticism was oriented mostly to bad equipment, bad servicing of machines and even the very bad social status of pilots who were attached to the Foreign Legion during training at the beginning of the war.
(this statement is supported by many first hand accounts from diaries of Svatopluk Janouch GC I/6, Stanislav Fejfar GC I/6, Sgt. Otto Hanzlicek GC II/5, Vaclav Cukr II/3 and others).

Some of pilots (namely Lts.- Janouch and Fejfar) were critical to their French comrades as well mostly for lack of discipline and co-operation during air battles which caused preventable losses. (S. Fejfar was killed himself on the May 17, 1942 when he deliberately departed from his squadron with his wingman and theirs Spitfires were bounced by Fw–190).

Generally speaking I thing that the French fighters fought with great skill, courage and determination which is supported by many confirmed victories at one side and sustained serious losses on the other side. The same applies for Czechs (and other Allied pilots)

What I found interesting is a high number of combat missions and hours flown by the pilots during Battle of France period. Is it known who were the pilots with highest numbers of missions?

Kind Regards. David

[Franek Grabowski]

Lionel

Originally Posted by Petitpoucet

Franek, i think it will take me more time to answer to you. But i think the discussion can be interesting.

As long as it will not be emotional.

First of all, in France, do you know that every pilots who fired an ennemy aircraft before it felt was credited with a complete victory ?

Yes, though I think the system was not introduced consistently, as it seems sometimes just every pilot in patrol was credited and sometimes not.

For example, with the poor 7,5mm guns on their Curtisses, they were often a lot to destroy a Henshel 126 or a Heinkel 111.

I do not think that 7,9 MGs fared any better, and actually most of the Battle of Britain kills were shared ones, but this is not the point.

Second point : i can understand that a pilot could be disappointed when one of his claim was not confirmed. But to say that french officers stole victories obtained by polish pilots, i think it is just a nonsense.

I agree it is strange or weird, but this is what was actually stated by some pilots.

I studied a lot of reports, they are clear, and i never read or heard about something like that.
Could you give me some dates, some facts ? You have a lot of them as i can undestand.

Not a lot, as there was not a lot of victories. One of them was already mentioned and it was Karubin's kill on 3 June over Etampes, that, according to another airman, was credited to a French pilot instead.

About Villacoublay, and many other cases : just remember one word in France in june 1940 : disorder. I just tried to explain what happened in Villacoublay, but now, i don't really undestand what you want to tell me.

I just wanted to say, that similar accounts to the one of Villa, can be found in various memories. In general they describe a total lack of moral fibre across the French armed forces. On the other hand, there are some stories of elderly French people, who expressed to Poles their sorrow for such a behaviour of French army.

You're right. there were much czech aces because they joined groups equipped with better aircrafts (H-75, for example). On may 10th 1940, there were only four groups equipped with Curtisses, and the first one with new D.520 was operationnal two days later.
So, many Polish pilots used bad aircarfts (Caudron 714, MS 406) because they were the only ones available, but obtained many victories.

I think Poles were just too late to join the fight in any strength. There was a lot of time lost for various discussions, and attempts to make any acceptable agreement. There was also a lot of distrust on the French side.

Many of them would become aces in the RAF where Hurricanes and Spitfires were available.

Indeed, but the situation was different.

Laskiewicz joined a new formed group, the GC III/2, leaded by a great man, Cdt Geille, but he was not a great fighter pilot.

Łaszkiewicz considered Geille just too old for the modern conflict. He regarded him as a man, but considered just a man on the wrong position.

The officers who leaded the two squadrons were not the best examples, but the group had great sub-officers. So i think i was not an anti-french propaganda, but the critiscim of his own group, and its commanding officers.

Well, this more-less fits with statements of Łaszkiewicz. If I recall correctly, he had a high esteem for such young pilots like Lansoy, and considered them the people who should take the lead. He could not understand, for example, that the pilots slept long, then had a breakfast, then a little rest and only then they were ready for flying. Then lunch break, and then the dinner with a lot of wine. Łaszkiewicz was just amazed, that the unit worked picnic-like. Otherwise he was quite critical about general approach to combat (lack of proper training), and quality of groundcrew, as well as some pilots. It seems Corniglione and his crew were considered especially bad, but this possibly to the fact, Corniglione took his aircraft, in exchange of overheated one.
The visit of Fonck was another matter, and general situation of French aviation was discussed. I cannot find it at the moment, but I will give you an exact date.

[Juha]

Hello Petitpoucet
Quote:” So, "detached in ground units" could be better.”

Yes, at least most PanzerDivs had their own Hs 126 Staffel as had at least some Corps.

And thanks again for 14 May info. Arnaud Gillet seems to have made a classical mistake. He seems to have thought that he had checked all possibilities when in fact he had not been aware on certain organizational details. One major reason why a researcher should be careful in his conclusions.

On fighting spirit of French or whoever. One must remember that the Czech and Polish exile pilots were extraordinary motivated otherwise they would not have continued their fight after their countries were overrun. So their opinions on others’ fighting spirit might be too critical. Of course they might be right I haven’t studied the subject so I don’t have any firm opinion on the question.

Juha

[Petitpoucet]

Hi every body,

Many sentences i read today are really interesting.
Juha first, when he compared motivation of the Polish and Czech pilots with French ones... I think you're right.

France wanted the peace and was not prepared to the war, especially the civil population. In the army, it was not the same. They were professionnal and there were also really great french pilots, with the same motivation. It cannot be a generality, this is just why i'm not agree with you.

As i said to you, GC III/2 was not the best example of a french flying unit. Motivation was one of the lacks of the squadron leaders, so i'm not really surprised. I also read the war diary of another "young pilot" (a sub-officer, René Pizon), and i saw approximately the same things.
But as you said, this is one hand. I another hand, i can speak hours about the GC I/5. Accart, Dorance, Marin-La-Meslée, Vasatko, Perina, Morel .....
To answer to David's question, i think that Marin-la-Meslée was the pilot with higher number of war missions.
I also liked what you said about lack of discipline, to conclude that Fejfar was killed when he deliberately leaved his squadron ...
But how Polish and Czech pilots would have not been critical against a country that lost the war ?

June 3rd 1940 : Arnaud Gillet made a huge work, and be sure that there were no Dornier 17s detached to ground units !
Adj Benausse, A/C Balmer and Sgt Karubin attacked a flight of Do 17s from I./KG 76 near Ham (Somme). They claimed one sure each, but there were just three Dorniers ... damaged. No one seems to have been confirmed.

Lionel

[Brian]

Hi Lionel

Since you mentioned my query, I suppose I will have to become involved again. You wrote:
__________________________________________________ ___________

May 14th 1940 : According to "secret" sources, four Battles from Squadron 142 were destroyed by GC III/7's Morane 406s. And the french pilots claimed Henshel 126s ...
Yes !!! Why not ?

The first to write that had a theory. This one, Arnaud Gillet, worked on original archives and did not find in the Luftwaffe any losses that matched. So, he concluded that they destroyed four Battles lost by the RAF in the same area.
But he made a mistake, Henschel 126s were detached in the Wehrmacht, and losses do exist. To name him, Jean-Yves Lorant found them.

"But Henschel 126s... " wrote someone. Seven pilots involved...
I was very sad, mister Brian, when i read your intervention. Were you really serious ?
I hope it was just the "Grozibou's effect".
__________________________________________________ ___________

Yes, I am really serious - and why are you very sad? Sad that friendly fire incidents occurred? Yes, we all agree they are tragic. Sad that I should ask such a silly question? But how do you know that Arnauld Gillet falsified the 'facts' to suit his account? Has he admitted this? And where is Jean-Yves Lorant's proof of the Hs126 losses? Or is this just your opinion - we've had enough of Grozibou's opinions!

For the past few years I have been researching aerial friendly fire incidents during WWII - my compliation now runs to three volumes and contains 100s if not 1000s of such incidents - air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, all air forces - and I am sure that I have only scratched the surface! Many dozens of these incidents occurred during the battle of the Low Countries May-June 1940.

I am not anti-French, anti-German or anti-anyone else. Some of my closest friends in the field of aviation research are French.

Cheers
Brian