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  #31  
Old 14th January 2018, 15:54
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

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Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Good afternoon Johannes,

can you tell me why a Heinrich Sterr total score of 130 can often be found ?

Kind regards,

Michael
...whereas this list indicates 117 and lists 67.
http://www.cieldegloire.com/_001_sterr_h.php

Michael
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  #32  
Old 15th January 2018, 01:55
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

The list from the old jpglieze website had his kills as 130. The original site is now dead and some of the lists can be now found at -
https://archive.is/jpgleize.perso.neuf.fr
but not the WW2 Luftwaffe list.
Is the Ciel de Gloire link you provided an old one? The site now has Sterr's details as 'under construction' and lists the total as 130.
Safarik lists the total as 129.
Peter
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  #33  
Old 15th January 2018, 06:46
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Hi Guys

Sterr's total confirmed claims was 108. 105 scored over Sowiet aircraft with 6./JG 54 between 6th April 1942 and 21st July 1944, then three with 16./JG 54, one Sowiet Jak-9 on 12th August 1944, a P-47 on 23rd September 1944 and a B-25 on 25th September 1944. He had two really big days in the East 2nd August 1943 when he claimed seven Nr.63-69, and 8th October 1943 when he claimed six Nr.78-83. His fiftieth fell on 17th July 1944 and his hundredth on 1st May 1944. He claimed twenty Il-2's.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #34  
Old 17th January 2018, 18:23
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FalkeEins FalkeEins is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Günther Josten scored 78 kills in a period when I./JG51 was equipped with the Bf109G (Mar 1944-Mar 1945).
I would be very interested in the plane type flown by him on 5 Feb1944 and between 3 Apr1945 and 22 Apr1945.
Cheers,
Michael
extract from Josten's book 'Gefechtsbericht' (296 Verlag)

"25. April 1945. Inzwischen haben wir einige 190 D-9 bekommen und gewaltig abgeschossen. Ofw. Marquardt bei der Überführung vier Jak-3. Ich selbst stelle am 25. 04. einen neuen Tagesrekord auf. Beim ersten Einsatz mit drei D-9 schoß ich eine Jak-3 und drei Il-2 ab. Beim nächsten Einsatz flog Ofw. Rauch mit mir. Wir waren nur in der Rotte und schossen neun Russen ab. Ich selbst fünf. Zuerst trafen wir 50 Boston und 30 Airacobra. Jeder schoß eine Airacobra ab, dann ich eine Boston, anschließend noch eine. Darauf kamen 20 Il-2 und 30 Jak-3. Rauch erledigte zwei Jak-3 und ich zwei Il-2. Damit hatte ich in zwei Einsätzen neun Luftsiege. Am folgenden Tag kam noch eine Jak-3 hinzu. Somit steht meine Abschußzahl auf 178."



" 25 April 1945. Meanwhile we had taken on charge several Fw 190 D-9 fighters and shot down a lot of enemy planes with them. Just ferrying his machine in Ofw. Marquardt accounted for four Yak-3 fighters alone. On the 25th I achieved a new record for D-9 victories in a single day. On the first sortie we put up three D-9s and I shot down a single Yak 3 and three Il-2s. On the next sortie I was accompanied by Ofw. Rauch. We flew together as a Rotte and downed nine Reds. I got five of them. We firstly ran into 50 Bostons and 30 Airacobras. We both shot down an Airacobra and then I got a Boston and then another to finish. Then we encountered 20 Il-2s and 30 Yak 3s. Rauch finished off two Yak 3s while I shot down two Il-2s for a total of nine victories in two sorties. The following day I added a further Yak 3 to my tally to bring my total number of aerial victories to 178.."
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  #35  
Old 18th January 2018, 21:46
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Good evening FalkeEins,

can you tell me if Josten flew an Fw190A or a Bf109 on 3Apr45 and 7Apr45 ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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  #36  
Old 19th January 2018, 00:15
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Johannes,

According to Sterr's Personalakte he had 108 Abschüsse by 22.06.1944. Laut KTB 3. JD his victory on Sept 25th was his 111.

Regards,

John
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  #37  
Old 19th January 2018, 16:56
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Hello John,

do the documents make a statement about Sterr's final total ?

older books:
-Toliver/Constable (1968): 130
-Musciano (1982): 130
-Weal (1995): 127 in the East

Michael
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  #38  
Old 20th January 2018, 06:38
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Hi John

I found 102 confirmed claims by 22nd June 1944, don't think there are any missing on the mikrofilms, but numbers 100-102 scored on 1st May 1944 before a break before his next on 9th July 1944, so your "BY 22nd June 1944" is a pivotal date.
Perhaps his 129/130 includes a number of unconfirmed, but often a number is "cast in stone" and duplicated over the decades, I have found this several times when I do have copies of the pilots flugbücher which match the mikrofilms precisely

Lots of totals, and front totals come from Ernst Obermeier's books, which the second edition is a evolution of the first, they really were very good for there time, some biographies are still perfect, but others far different from the truth. I would say he researched well, and met a lot of the pilots/their families. Some totals are a confusion between claims and confirmed, others a confusion between the points system and confirmed. Even perfect work is often "corrupted" during publishing, and as I say becomes "fact, cast in stone", some pilots included unconfirmed in their totals, I guess if they were honest guys they knew they had fallen, some did not know they were unconfirmed, some exaggerated, sometimes the totals come by second party. With Sterr he did not survive the war, I do not think his flugbuch has ever come to light, which leaves prior to the mikrofilms KBT papers and konrades.

Where Obermeier got his Sterr data from I do not know, but looking at other biographies decades ago you would take his word over anybody elses, and I would guess that it is his total given that people have been accepting for fifty years.

Kind regards

Johannes
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  #39  
Old 21st January 2018, 18:29
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

Mmmm.....I also have a victory for Sterr on June 26th 1944....but the Personalakte is clear on the following remarks;

5.7.1943: 43 Abschüsse.
21.6.1944: 450 Feindflüge and 108 Abschüsse.

There is also a document in the file that is dated just before his death and that requests a further promotion to Hauptmann and dated 13.11.1944.....it says he had 128 Abschüsse.

I think we both do not understand how he could achieved that number, probably also the unconfirmed are included.

Rechecked KTB 3. JD but can't find the reference numbers to his victories of September 23rd and 25th 1944.

Regards,

J.
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  #40  
Old 22nd January 2018, 03:05
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Top Fw 190 aces

John/all,

This is interesting.

With respect to 43 Abschüsse by 05.07.43, both Prien’s JFV series and Johannes lists have 43 claims listed by this date – the match (though T Woods list is missing the first 2)

With 108 Abschüsse by 21.06.44 there are 102 known claims thus 6 missing. In Priens JFV series, his team has a gap in late Sept 43 of claims data where he attributes 6 missing claims, thus also appears to be working to 108 by 21.06.44 – though 1944 data has yet to be published.

As to 111th Abschüsse on 25.09.44, there are at least 6 claims in the period after 108 so it doesn’t add up. Johan has an additional claim on 26.06.44 while T Woods has an additional claim on 28.06.44 (which Johannes has attributed to Ltn Carl Resch) – these are probably the sam. John can you post the details of the claim to confirm this or determine if it is another claim?

To confuse things further, Obermaier in his Ritterstrager book has the following

Sterr having 32 Luftsiegen by May 1943
Sterr being awarded the RK on 05.12.43 at 86 Luftsiegen.
His 100th in November 1943 (a contradiction- dates?)
Total 130 – probably 127 in Russia

I’d attach a scanned photocopy (poor quality but readable) of what Obermaier wrote in his book but I haven’t figured out how to do attachments yet.

My understanding is that Obermaier was working on mostly wartime communiques, news reports plus pilot recollection etc and that much of archival information was not available to him when he published in 1966, so verification may have been difficult at that stage.

So, this is what we have to date:

Reported Known
By 05.43 32 31
05.07.43 43 43
11.43 100 83 ????????
05.12.43 86 83
21.06.44 108 102
25.09.44 111 108? (+26.06.44 & 28.06.44 claims?)
13.11.44 128 108?
KIA 26.11.44 130 108?

There seems to be agreement at the 43 Abschusse on 05.07.43, - I put the 1 claim difference in the earlier “by May 43” total down to an early rejected claim.

With 86 Luftsiegen at time of award of RK, and Sterr wbeing WIA on 08.10.43 and not getting back to action until January 1944 one could assume that no further claims were made during the period between recommendation and award of the RK. There are 83 known claims up to this time so 3 claims are missing between 05.07.43 and 05.12.43 and another 3 missing between 05.12.43 and 21.06.44. This is in contradiction to Priens data - there doesn’t appear to be a gap in the 1943 data for JG 54 which makes me think Priens team have it wrong and the missing claims were more likely rejected or unconfirmed claims. Keep in mind that many of the 1942 and 1943 claims were not processed until well into 1944 and due to the backlog in the claim process, Sterr would probably have not known at that stage of his award of the RK that some, if any of his formally submitted claims were formally rejected at that stage.

By 25.09.44 the backlog in processing claims of 1942 and 1943 was well underway so the by this stage Sterr may have had an idea that several of the claims were rejected or remained unconfirmed. Therefore the 111 may have been the adjusted total of which 108 are known – this leave 3 missing claims (or 1 missing claim if the 26.06.44 and 28.06.44 claims can be verified)

The confusing thing is the 100 in November 43, 128 on 13.11.43 and 130 by the time of his death. Could this have been a personal total? In the claims process, the pilot had to get the claims past the Spiess before they were forwarded to RLM. Could the additional 14 claims have been claims that were rejected at unit level? Add the 14 to the 108 and you have 122, plus 6 for the post 25.09.44 claims = 128 and the 2 disputed claims = 130 (all guess work). As the unit was fighting the western allies late 44 it is unlikely he would have scored around 20 additional claims and not have it reported

Awaiting more on this mystery?

Regards,

Craig…
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