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  #11  
Old 18th January 2018, 07:29
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Hi Graig

Many thanks for your query, and you are correct, I somehow merged the two claims, details of the claim for 26th August as above, with the exception that it was not a LaGG-3, but a La-5. I'll add another claim into his abschusse list.
In my experience A.S.M claims usually get confirmed, but usually it takes longer than normal, and the paperwork I think gets sent to a different office. I have collected many copies of flugbucher in recent years and judged this on their comments. Most A.S.M claims seem to be because of lack of witness(but usually no comments in flugbuch), but usually have ground witnesses, whereas if a pilot marks a claim as O.Z in his flugbuch, then it never appears on the mikrofilms, which I should think means no ground witness either.........most common for Stab pilots(because they flew alone, or at least in a reduced number) Wilhelm Batz is a good example, Johannes Wiese another.

Seems we two have concluded the same about his flugbuch surviving the war, at least for 1943, and probably 1944, 1945 would be of most help to us. I believe that Josten and Brendel were the highest scoring pilots of 1945, and as far as I can tell were honest guys.

I have been struck though in general about how small a group in the East they generally flew in !

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #12  
Old 18th January 2018, 12:35
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Graig

Many thanks for your query, and you are correct, I somehow merged the two claims, details of the claim for 26th August as above, with the exception that it was not a LaGG-3, but a La-5. I'll add another claim into his abschusse list.
In my experience A.S.M claims usually get confirmed, but usually it takes longer than normal, and the paperwork I think gets sent to a different office. I have collected many copies of flugbucher in recent years and judged this on their comments. Most A.S.M claims seem to be because of lack of witness(but usually no comments in flugbuch), but usually have ground witnesses, whereas if a pilot marks a claim as O.Z in his flugbuch, then it never appears on the mikrofilms, which I should think means no ground witness either.........most common for Stab pilots(because they flew alone, or at least in a reduced number) Wilhelm Batz is a good example, Johannes Wiese another.

Seems we two have concluded the same about his flugbuch surviving the war, at least for 1943, and probably 1944, 1945 would be of most help to us. I believe that Josten and Brendel were the highest scoring pilots of 1945, and as far as I can tell were honest guys.

I have been struck though in general about how small a group in the East they generally flew in !

Kind Regards

Johannes
Johannes,
Yes, Brendel gives an impression of honesty. Here is what I have on him to date:

Joachim Brendel

6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date?

9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date

18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well)

9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43

9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two)

6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5)

7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each)

28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one

8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed)

10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims)

6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters

7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them

9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…)

15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…)

17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner)

12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down)

13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944)

24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter?

30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet)

29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok

14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…)

20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date
25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed)

22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…)

20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned
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  #13  
Old 18th January 2018, 20:50
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Good evening Gentlemen,

how do you like this list ?
http://luftwaffe.cz/stormovik.html

Cheers,

Michael
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  #14  
Old 19th January 2018, 03:37
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

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Originally Posted by knusel View Post
Good evening Gentlemen,

how do you like this list ?
http://luftwaffe.cz/stormovik.html

Cheers,

Michael
As far as pure victory tallies go, it's great. But if you make no attempt to match the claims to actual losses... ...then is it really true that Kittel shot down more IL-2s than Brendel? Is it really true that Brendel shot down more than Wiese in turn...?

Do you really want to go on blindly accepting the ever-so-fantastic victory tallies of these aces without seeing if they have real substantiation? If the Russians did not lose an IL-2 every single time Kittel claimed to have shot one down then it simply is not true to say that "Kittel shot down 94 Sturmoviks". It isn't the cold war anymore...
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:16
PMoz99 PMoz99 is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

I think the truth is that we will never be able to say for certain how many kills a certain pilot got, unless we can match each claim to a definite a/c killed. I think those instances are in a vast minority.
In those cases where we can't, it's impossible to say we have all the information relevant. It is fact that many records were lost.
Unless someone can reconcile the number of aircraft produced vs the number left at the end vs the number claimed to have been shot down, lost in accidents etc WITH CERTAINTY, and then match that to all the reports, there will almost always be uncertainty.
I think there will ALWAYS be instances where information is inaccurate or incomplete or censored, so to try to pin down exact numbers will in I'd say the vast majority of cases be a lost cause.
Historians and experts have trawled through all the available data. Be happy with what we have. It won't get any better given pretty much all the relevant personnel are now no longer with us, and it's now 70-odd years ago. Even the more recent wars have discrepancies.
Peter
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  #16  
Old 19th January 2018, 06:36
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Hi Guys

Based on actual evidence of claims, and including those making false, but official claims, list should read:-

Kittel 91+
Brendel 87+(however I have ten of his claims missing, and with him almost exactly half of his claims were Il-2;s)
Josten 79
Schall & Wiese 62
Rudorffer 58
Hafner 57
Eisenach 53
Borchers 48+
Batz 48
Bachnick 42
Robert Weiss 41
von Eichel-Streiber & Lipfert 40
Trenkel & Brändle 39
Düttmann & Fonnekold 37+
Schleinhege 37
Helmut Missner & Heinz Schmidt 36
Adolf Nehrig & Paul-Hinrich Dähne 35+
Oskar Romm & Werner Lucas 34
Kurt Dombacher & Gerhard Hoffmann 33+
Barkhorn 33
Hans Waldmann 32
Erich Leie 31
Günther Schack, Bernhard Vechtel & Anton Resch 30+

Another sixty from 20 until 29.

Erich Hartmann a lowly 14+, Hartmann seemed reluctant to fly at low altitude which is what Il-2's did, his 4% ratio must be one of the lowest.

+= he has other claims that I do not have, or claims that he did not, or was not sure of the aircraft type.

Il-2's became more prevalent 1943 onwards.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #17  
Old 19th January 2018, 15:12
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Hello Johannes,

I think Kittel's traditional score of 267 includes 2 unconfirmed on 30Jun41 (Il-2's) and excludes the Il-2 on the last day of his life.
That means there were 92 Il-2's within his official score of 267.

Brendel has according to your list at least 87 Il-2 kills.
11 kills are listed with unknown types.
10 kills are not listed..
With a percentage of 52% Il-2's among his known kills Brendel may have been credited with an Il-2 total of ~98.

Johannes were you sure when you wrote "...On 28th July 1943 he was shot down by Russian flak, baling-out injured from his Bf109..." ?
Wasn't his unit equipped with the Fw190 then ?

Have a nice afternoon,

Michael

Last edited by knusel; 19th January 2018 at 15:43.
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  #18  
Old 19th January 2018, 16:25
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Hello Knusel, Did the two unconfirmed Il-2 that you mentioned for Kittel come from his flight book? I have that the I. Gruppe as in base transit on the 30 June 1941 and no victory claims for them that day. The II. and III. Gruppe were the only ones claiming on the 30 June 1941 and they were busy with SB, Ar-2 and DB-3 from the 1 BK DBA and VVS KBF.
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  #19  
Old 21st January 2018, 05:32
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Hi Guys

Sorry, senior moment is was a Fw190 not Bf109 on 28th July 1943.

Also eight-seven Il-2's are what I have dates for, so eighty-seven is the minimum, as Michael states working the percentages another ten or more would appear likely.

Fact is that Brendel was the top Il-2 killer. Ernst Obermeier states "more than ninety Il-2's" and it would appear his statement is very likely correct.

Regards

Johannes
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  #20  
Old 22nd January 2018, 20:53
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoz99 View Post
I think the truth is that we will never be able to say for certain how many kills a certain pilot got, unless we can match each claim to a definite a/c killed. I think those instances are in a vast minority.
In those cases where we can't, it's impossible to say we have all the information relevant. It is fact that many records were lost.
Unless someone can reconcile the number of aircraft produced vs the number left at the end vs the number claimed to have been shot down, lost in accidents etc WITH CERTAINTY, and then match that to all the reports, there will almost always be uncertainty.
I think there will ALWAYS be instances where information is inaccurate or incomplete or censored, so to try to pin down exact numbers will in I'd say the vast majority of cases be a lost cause.
Historians and experts have trawled through all the available data. Be happy with what we have. It won't get any better given pretty much all the relevant personnel are now no longer with us, and it's now 70-odd years ago. Even the more recent wars have discrepancies.
Peter
Respectfully,

Some of the more excellent published and unpublished material that examine specific campaigns give a far better impression - it's not as bad as all that, words like "vast majority of cases" etc just don't ring true if you take a look at works like Donald Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary, Christopher Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War and 2nd Tactical Air Force War Diaries and Theo Boiten's Nachtjagd War Diaries (soon to be released in much-updated form to cover the Mediterranean and Eastern Theatres). Some of the blogs and articles on specific Eastern Front campaigns are brilliant too. Yes, there are uncertainties, but I can't agree that they are the vast majority. Not by a long shot.
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