MARSEILLE his last kill

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

Yes Christer I know that. I want to show our "Besserwisser" only one simply example.

It is a bighead in English. Do I understand correctly that you consider yourself a smallhead?
You should be awared that there were 4 other claims on 3.06.1942 and 10 on 1.09.1942. Having no combat reports of all the airmen engaged I am not certain how can you assume all the losses were inflicted by Marseille. Also, I am not sure if you have any access to casualty reports, so again how do you know exact circumstances of those losses?
Fighters over the Desert is 30+ years old, before many files were declasified. Relying on it is problematic.
H-J Marseille was no doubt above average pilot but most of his successes were achieved in a quite comfortable conditions. With the appearance of Spitfires in the MTO, this period ended, however. End of the Marseille's legend was about to come and it was only his (mis)fortune he was killed in an accident.

[Christer Bergström]

Don, I agree with you. I've heard that Marseille was quite a sensitive person. But we should also take into account the fact that in September 1942, the resistance which JG 27 met in the air had grown considerably stronger than previously. By that time, the Allies had reached a numerical superiority in the air of about three to one. This increased Allied resistance in the air is reflected in I./JG 27's results:

During the period 1 May 1942 - 31 August 1942, I./JG 27 was credited with 203 aerial victories against only four own losses in air combat. (Regarding victory-to loss ratio, the record was reached in 1 May - 30 June 1942 with 129 victories against a single own loss in air combat.)

That result should be compared with the figures for September 1942: 85 victories against 7 losses in air combat.

Andy Mac, due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", Marseille's victims in the air combat on 3 June 1942 were - all from 5 SAAF Sqn:

Capt. Pare, went down in flames
2/Lt Martin, belly-landed at Bir Hacheim
Capt. Morrison, shot down and wounded
Lt. Muir, shot down and wounded
2/Lt. Golding, shot down and wounded
Capt. Botha, belly-landed

Botha was an ace with 5 victories, three of which were claimed against Ju 87s in the same combat. 2/Lt. Golding and Lt. Muir also were veterans with victories on their scoreboards.

Marseille's victories were attained at 12.22, 12.25, 12.27, 12.28, 12.29, and 12.33 hours. Afterward, his mate Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt wrote in a letter home: "Marseille is able to shoot like a young god. Above all, he is able to do what only few can - to shoot with perfection while turning."

[robert]

Franek,

we love you your big head .
Three claims of III/JG53 from 03.06.42 were made in the combat over sea just nearby to El Alamein coast area. We could add one claim from II/JG27 to the combat with 5 SAAF but this could not considerable change the facts.


Robert

[John Beaman]

I have been watching this thread with interest. Frankly I think the predilection with “absolute” numbers in terms of kills is wasteful.



Now that we are able to view large chunks of actual wartime records, I think we all realize there was a lot of overclaiming on all sides. In combat it is a sky full of turning and twisting, snap shots and high Gs. Mistakes are made and what seems so visually certain may not be. Add to that that planes that made it back to base with a high degree of damage, were not these lost to combat for a while? Someone might have claimed these and were they not “lost” for a period? Also, look at one example like the second Schwienfurt raid. In addition to the actual 60 bombers lost, another 30 were so damaged they were scrapped—“lost”. If some of those were from fighter attacks and were claimed by such, how does one justify not giving credit?



Frankly, if Marseille shot down 14 instead of 17 aircraft in one day, or 120 versus 158 in his career, does it really take away from his accomplishments? The same holds true with Sakai, Bong, J E Johnson, etc. They were great pilots, period.

[Artist]

I don't post much but I must agree with Mr. Beaman 100%. Both World Wars are full of overclaims but these high scorers still must have outscored the rest, or you would here more complaining by fellow pilots, instead of all the praise.

Robert

[Rob Romero]

Author Christer Bergström post (No. 8) indicates that “Due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", it seems as though most of Marseille's 17 victories on 1 September 1942 can be verified through Allied sources.” Great! How many –including shot up and crash landings- can be verified and can anyone post a complete breadown (Unit - pilot –aircraft- damage) for Marseille’s greatest day. Also in another post it is suggested that Marseille’s actual victories may have been 120 –Has there ever been a careful evaluation of his claims and resultant tally of victories?



Many Thanx!!!

[Franek Grabowski]

John
The problem is that some people consider German pilots better than Allied ones because of their higher scores and reputed accuracy and were defeated only by an overwhelming enemy. This is not quite true so. Hartmann or Marseille for eg. rarely flew on equal terms with their enemies. They are in a large part a creation of Goebels' propaganda - please note there are almost no debates on Allied aces here!
Robert
I admit on the list I have checked, JG53 claims were without place but at the same time as JG27. I will check Prien for details. Anyway, you are forgetting about one important participant - Reggia Aeronautica. I do not have their claims, do you?

[robert]

Sorry my fault, but I have mistaken the 03.06 with 03.07 - so the III/JG53 were made in the same area. We should add also another losses of RAF e.g. one a/c from 112 RAF. None RA claims in this time and area.

Robert

[Christer Bergström]

In a pause in my intense work on the manuscript to the book on Walter Schuck:

Author Christer Bergström post (No. 8) indicates that “Due to "Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne", it seems as though most of Marseille's 17 victories on 1 September 1942 can be verified through Allied sources.” Great! How many –including shot up and crash landings- can be verified and can anyone post a complete breadown (Unit - pilot –aircraft- damage) for Marseille’s greatest day.

Well aware of the sad fact that anyone who posts anything here runs the risk of having both what is written and what is not written scrutinised to a ridiculous amount, I take the fresh liberty to give an answer to Rob Romero - although it means that I will have to outrageously refer to what is written in a 30-year old book. I take this brazen liberty out of two reasons:
a) I like to share what I know with my friends who share this interest, among them Rob Romero;
b) I don't think there is any better published source than this 30-year old book (at least I don't have access to anything better on the topic, but maybe someone else with better knowledge has):


In their book ”Luftkampf zwischen Sand und Sonne” ("Fighters Over the Desert"), historians and researchers Christopher Shores and Hans Ring have made a painstaking investigation of what occurred on that day. By investigating archives of both sides, they arrive at the following conclusion:
Marseille's first mission that day:
4 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 0926, 0928, 0935, and 0938 hrs) with 80 cannon shells and 240 machine-gun rounds.
According to Shores/Ring, these were the pilots in the aircraft which Marseille claimed shot down: Lt Bailey (1 SAAF sqn) force-landed his Hurricane; Maj Metelerkamp (1 SAAF sqn) was injured and had his Hurricane badly shot up; F/O Matthews (238 sqn) had his Hurricane shot down; P/O Bradley-Smith (601 sqn) had his Spitfire shot down.

Marseille's second mission that day:
8 enemy fighters ("P-40s") claimed shot down( at 1155, 1156, 1158, 1159, 1201, 1202, 1203, and 1205 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, Lt Remmer claimed one P-40 on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, six British fighters were shot down during an escort mission for bombers.

Marseille's third mission that day:
5 enemy fighters claimed shot down (at 1847, 1848, 1849, 1850, and 1853 hrs). In addition to Marseille's claims, four enemy fighters were claimed shot down by other German pilots on the same mission.
According to Shores/Ring, five Hurricanes of 213 sqn and one Hurricane of 208 sqn that were shot down approximately at the same time probably are identical with at least some of the German claims on that mission.

Shores and Ring list a number of additional Allied fighters lost in combat in Egypt on 1 September 1942 - although it has not been possible to verify the exact time (hour & minute):

Sgt. Sowerby, 3 RAAF sqn, was shot down
5 SAAF sqn had four of its fighters shot down
2 SAAF sqn and 64 U.S. sqn lost three P-40s on one mission
According to Shores/Ring, some of these (at least one of 5 SAAF sqn's losses) are among the six fighters which were shot down when they escorted bombers and - probably - were encountered by Marseille on his second mission on 1 September 1942.

Due to Shores/Ring, the official Allied losses in North Africa on 1 September 1942 amount to 22 aircraft (9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 U.S. Warhawk, and 2 Beaufighters).

Apart from Marseille’s 17 claims, the following number of claims were made by German fighter units in North Africa on 1 September 1942:

Stab/JG 27: 0

I./JG 27: 5

II./JG 27: 3

III./JG 27: 1

JG 53 made no claims in North Africa on 1 September 1942.

All of this indicates that Marseille in reality shot down 10 - 15 fighters on this single day. In fact, only one of the 17 aircraft that he claimed as shot down can be proved to have landed fairly safely - the badly shot down Hurricane which was piloted by five-victory ace Major Metelerkamp.

Should this post by me lead to another outburst of mudslinging as we have seen previously, I can assure you that I will again withdraw from this forum.

[david Cotton]

Hello All
I think we may be going a bit off topic here. I only used the number to try and reference the kill I was interested in. Next time I will just say his last claimed kill ! I am not debating weather his 158 kills are valid, I am interested in who this last pilot was.

There can only be a certain number of allied air craft shotdown on that day. So one of those pilots has to be his last kill if the aircraft did indeed go down.

If the pilot did get back to base, i would think that he would of written some thing about a dogfight that lasted that long.

Regards
David