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  #11  
Old 17th July 2019, 12:09
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

Just to add to the Lincoln raid info. the second edition of the Horn KG 6 history shows :- 17-8-1943 Angriff auf Lincoln 15/KG 6 Do 217 E-4 3E+CZ 4315 crew of Fw Ernst Stemplinger missing from target marking mission . It then states that at the end of August the strength of I/KG 66 was 3 He 111 H-6, 2 Do217 E-4, 1 Do 217 K-1, 5 Do 217 M-1 , 6 Ju 188 E-1 , and 3 Ju 88 S-1 thus closing the Chronik der 15/KG 6. - NB GQM of 23-8-43 shows the unit for Stemplinger as I/KG 66 , assume mid August was a transition period between the 15/KG 6 to I/KG 66

Brian Bines
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  #12  
Old 18th July 2019, 00:45
Marcel van Heijkop Marcel van Heijkop is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

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Originally Posted by Chris Goss View Post
I have all of Price's Altrogge photos & can have a closer look when I am home from France. As to the 188 involvement in the Lincoln attack the only firm evidence is the ac that was damaged
Hi Chris,

Would be very interested to see what you can find! Just something like the right year would help enormously. BTW: What the source for the damaged aircraft? GQM, ADI(K) or ULTRA? Would it be possible for you to share the info?
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  #13  
Old 18th July 2019, 01:15
Marcel van Heijkop Marcel van Heijkop is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

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Originally Posted by Brian Bines View Post
Just to add to the Lincoln raid info. the second edition of the Horn KG 6 history shows :- 17-8-1943 Angriff auf Lincoln 15/KG 6 Do 217 E-4 3E+CZ 4315 crew of Fw Ernst Stemplinger missing from target marking mission . It then states that at the end of August the strength of I/KG 66 was 3 He 111 H-6, 2 Do217 E-4, 1 Do 217 K-1, 5 Do 217 M-1 , 6 Ju 188 E-1 , and 3 Ju 88 S-1 thus closing the Chronik der 15/KG 6. - NB GQM of 23-8-43 shows the unit for Stemplinger as I/KG 66 , assume mid August was a transition period between the 15/KG 6 to I/KG 66

Brian Bines
Hi Brian,

This early period of I./KG66 is indeed difficult..In theory Stab and 1., 2. , 3. and 4./KG66 should already have been formed by August 1943 (30 April considered as the start date), in practice however the early losses still show KG6 unit codes... Let alone if the "hearts and minds" of the aircrew were already fully with their new Gruppe or still with their former unit..

PS According to Altrogge's Flugbuch the target was "Ziel: Dieselmotorenwerk in Lincoln".

Regards,

Marcel
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  #14  
Old 18th July 2019, 12:43
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

Hi Marcel,

Probably like the KG 100 He177s , at the start of Steinbock ,which still
kept their old KG 4 code while the NVMs gave them as KG 100 transferred aircraft from KG 6 initially kept their 3E codes.The 'K' report and the NVM for the Simon crew POWs 30-5-43 clearly state 1/KG 66 . In this 'K' report it is stated that 1/KG 66 had operated since March 1943. As regards the Stemplinger crew which Horn shows as 15/KG 6 I did not get an NVM for them when I applied for the KG 66 NVMs . However this crew is shown as being lost in 3E+CZ of 1/KG 66 in the post war loss list for that unit. It would be handy if anyone has the NVM for the Stemplinger crew to see what that says. Might just be a case of late paperwork confirming crew transfer not coming through till after their loss,

Regards
Brian Bines
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  #15  
Old 19th July 2019, 17:21
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

Back home. There are 4 original Ju 188 photos said to have come from Altrogge; the remainder are of Do 217s. No codes visible apart from one which has TN on the tail above the hakenkreuz. No dates on any. Three have camo which is matt black from the horizontal stabilizer downwards and pale on top; last one (seen in this thread) is the same but with Maander camo. Two have split colour spinners; remainder one colour. As Brian says, the damaged ac in in the GQM

Last edited by Chris Goss; 19th July 2019 at 18:20.
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Old 19th July 2019, 17:49
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

I have from the NVM:

1943-08-17, 1./KG 66, Do 217 E-4, 4315, 3E+CZ, (Lincoln)
Flugzeugführer Ofw Stemplinger, Ernst, vermißt
Beobachter Uffz Ewe, Kurt, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Koch, Hans, vermißt
Bordschütze Ogfr Nitsche, Gustav, vermißt
Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.

Matti
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  #17  
Old 20th July 2019, 00:27
Marcel van Heijkop Marcel van Heijkop is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Goss View Post
Back home. There are 4 original Ju 188 photos said to have come from Altrogge; the remainder are of Do 217s. No codes visible apart from one which has TN on the tail above the hakenkreuz. No dates on any. Three have camo which is matt black from the horizontal stabilizer downwards and pale on top; last one (seen in this thread) is the same but with Maander camo. Two have split colour spinners; remainder one colour. As Brian says, the damaged ac in in the GQM
Hi Chris, then we likely have the same Altrogge photos. A pity about the missing captions though! Which reminds me of a remark by Altrogge during our interview when I asked too much details about his Flugbuch: "If I would have known at the time that 60 years later a young Dutchman would come to my house and ask so many detailed questions, I would have done a better job at filling it in ..

Regards,

Marcel
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  #18  
Old 20th July 2019, 01:16
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

Matti,

Thanks for the Stemplinger crew info.,

Brian Bines
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