Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Graham Boak]

Just to put a little perspective on this, the suggested ratio of about 1 genuine to 3 claims is reasonably close to the overall values quoted for different air forces at different times. The majority of which is simple confusion in the complexity and rush of battle, rather than any deliberate falsity. With, as suggested above several times, a good dash of wishful thinking.

[HGabor]

BenFolk,
Thank you for your comment. Accidentally I overlooked the 104 GvIAP, which lost an Airacobra indeed, piloted by Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Pavlovich Buzdin. Buzdin flew P-39 white '37' and was lost during the afternoon mission between 17:10-18:05. Eight 5 VA, 9 GvIAD, 104 GvIAP Airacobras were covering own troops in the Zahora area at 2300 m, as follows:

P-39 #38 - Gv.Capt. Mikhail Sergeevich Komelkov
P-39 #40 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Ivanovich Richazkov
P-39 #37 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Pavlovich Buzdin (MIA)
P-39 #42 - Gv.Lt. Yurii Borisovich Maltsev
P-39 #35 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Nikolaevich Klimov
P-39 #36 - Gv.Lt. Yakov Yakovlevich Shevchenko
P-39 #43 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Timofeevich Chichev
P-39 #20 - Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Stepanov

Combat with Bf 109s. The other reported 5 VA Airacobra loss this day -as previously discussed- was Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Vasilevich Dushanin from 5 VA, 9 GvIAD, 16 GvIAP. He force landed at Probota-E, 500 m and returned to his unit. These were the 2 reported Airacobra losses of the 5th Air Army on June 4, 1944. If Hartmann downed both, then his 'P-39' balance this day was 2 victories vs. 4 overclaims. (~30%)

Do you know which mechanical report removed Dushanin's plane from combat duty?
Thanks,
Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

Just to put a little perspective on this, the suggested ratio of about 1 genuine to 3 claims is reasonably close to the overall values quoted for different air forces at different times. The majority of which is simple confusion in the complexity and rush of battle, rather than any deliberate falsity. With, as suggested above several times, a good dash of wishful thinking.

Sorry Graham, but having compared losses to claims for a long time, 2 genuine to 3 claims seems more accurate. Two thirds instead of one third accuracy. Quite a lot of German pilots were even better than that, striking greater than 75% accuracy

[Johannes]

Hi Nick

Yes, it's hard when ones childhood heroes are questioned, but they were questioned way before the evidence supported the accusations.

Especially hard for Bernd who knew almost all the JG52 aces....and others, but there were good honest guys, who were still accused before the evidence has proved them honest, so in that respect it makes those "crashed" a little easier to live with. I guess most dis-honest claimers met with grief during the war, Hartmann's only grief was his fame brought ten years of imprisonment with it.

With Nowotny he was Austrian, perhaps he was getting back at the establishment who removed his homelands independence status?

As mentioned before Hartmann was not a popular officer, or indeed even a good one, I would guess that his little game may have been suspected, if not even known to some of his komrades?, perhaps publicity/fame saved him from any punishment. What is fact is that he took the most "kills" to get his Ritterkreuz.....I wonder why, fact he was moving very quickly in the scoring game at this time, but still I wonder if his Kommandeur suspected something and delays recommendation, also Hartmann again took the most claims to get the Eichenlaub, ..but then quickly gets the next decorations........the .propaganda machine would be loving him by then. But with the mentioned JG27 schwarm caught in a lie, just because another pilot reported their blatant "fake claims".....so whistle blowers were at least sometimes listened to, perhaps Hartmann/Nowotny became too big to be brought down!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[MW Giles]

With Nowotny he was Austrian, perhaps he was getting back at the establishment who removed his homelands independence status?

I think it was because his puppy dog died when he was 5 and he just wanted to be loved. Given that neither of us has any real evidence for motivation, my interpretation is just as good as yours, ie we do not know

Given the kudos that goes with being a top scorer I would suggest there are more likely motivations and rewards

Martin

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Sorry Graham, but having compared losses to claims for a long time, 2 genuine to 3 claims seems more accurate. Two thirds instead of one third accuracy. Quite a lot of German pilots were even better than that, striking greater than 75% accuracy

I have to go with Graham here, 1genuine to 3 claims, as an overall average. With variations according to time period, theatre etc.

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

I have to go with Graham here, 1genuine to 3 claims, as an overall average. With variations according to time period, theatre etc.

And what do you actually base that on?
I've frequently shared my findings here on the forum. Happy to be corrected, happy to be updated.

...But let's see yours.

You're basically saying that only one in three Luftwaffe claims was a legitimate victory with the other two as overclaims. Let's see you and/or Graham actually back that up.

[Stig1207]

Actually I took Graham's comment to be for WWII as a whole, all airforces involved, not just for the Luftwaffe. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[krichter33]

I used to love Hartmann when I was young and believed everything I read. Now my favorites are Marseille, Bar, Rall, Galland, Molders, and a bunch of lower scoring "Defense of the Reich" aces.

[Franek Grabowski]

The myth of German fighter pilots was created in 1950s, when West Germany was about to join NATO, and some positive PR was necessary. Hence the stress on a high scores against Soviets. Actually, German pilots overclaimed, sometimes heavily, but due to loss of paperwork it is not possible to make a proper assessment. This applies to ETO, where no proper scrutiny was ever made.