Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[BenFolk]

Hello


I don´t want any new Discussion to begin, but I think that must still to be added

Hartmann in his aerial fighting am 04.06.1944, had to face versus
100 GvIAP, 427 IAP, 438 IAP, 16 GvIAP, 16 GvIAP, 100 GvIAP and
100 GvIAP.

Uffz. Friedrich Haas, 5./JG 52 shot down a bomber. 5 VA did not report this, though 48 BAP admitted the loss of an A-20. Unfortunately, there is little data on other losses in Russian documents.

For example, 198 SchAD in October 1944 lost 4 IL-2 in air fights and 9 were damaged, of which 4 so strong that they were scrapped.
112 GvIAP lost 1945 11 aircraft on combat flights against JG 52, JG 77 and Flak fire, one in crash, four in breakdowns and another 39 were scrapped for other reasons - it is possible that some of them returned after air combat so damaged that it was not worth repairing them anymore.

Finally, there is an incident over Olomouc on May 8, 1945, where there was a collision of two planes due to through the clouds of smoke from the ground fighting. It is possible that Hartmann mistook the cities for it and shot down a Yak-3 that collided with the IL-2. Due to the poor visibility of this exact event, neither the Russians nor the Germans noticed it.
So maybe he had 353 kills instead of 352


BenFolk

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk,

Interesting insights. However there are multiple problems with May 8, 1945, which lead to the same conclusion.

1.: Olomouc-N is approx. 90km NE of downtown Brno, therefore not only is it in the wrong place, but it is also further away from Hartmann's airfield.

2.: Brno is approx. 80km away from where Hartmann took off from, while Olomouc is approx. 120 km away. His mission was to see how far the Soviets were from Deutsche Brod (the area which was at the front of the Soviet advance towards his airfield). By flying towards Olomouc, Hartmann would not have known how far the Soviet push towards his airfield was, rather he would have known how far the Soviet push was towards the North, something which would have been of no use to him.

3.: A Yak-3 colliding with an IL-2 by chance is unlikely if the Yak was falling from the heavens. If the Yak fell onto the IL-2 it would have been closer to the IL-2. The IL-2s were ground attack aircrafts which flew close to the ground (approx. 1000m altitude), therefore the altitude Hartmann stated is incorrect among many other details. If the Yak was escorting the IL-2s, there would have been multiple planes (say 8 IL-2s), therefore there would have been witnesses to report an encounter with the enemy. The only reported enemy aerial activity in the area was a lonely Ju 88 at high altitude.

4. Olomouc is even deeper into Soviet territory, therefore there would not have been 12 Mustangs in the air that Hartmann saw after his Yak-9 claim.

Consideration of these details again leads to the very same conclusion: Hartman's No.352 was just another overclaim.

Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello

I am sorry
Olomouc was in the operational area of the 60th Soviet Army.
The air defense of this army reported the passage of 14 enemy aircraft that day. 4 The FW190s were in action at 10.18 a.m. (Russian time) in the Mährisch Neustadt area.
Even 8 VA report that 3 Me 110 Russian troops stormed in the Prostejov area, towards Brno, and 7 enemy aircraft were discovered behind the front line.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any exact dates on the Soviet side.

BenFolk

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk,
Hartmann took off from Havlíčkův Brod (Německý Brod / Deutsch Brod) on May 8, 1945 in order to check the Soviet push towards their airfield. He was ordered to fly this mission by his superior, so it was not just a free hunt mission eg. to Olomouc.

Brno was much closer to his airfield than Olomouc (and for almost two weeks it was already in Soviet hands, therefore they knew the Russians were that close!) and he followed the main road to there. There is no main road connecting D.B. to Olomouc directly, only the one passing through Brno, where, by the way, he claimed that Yak-9 at approx. 9:00 LT. This means that his ‘lost’ mysterious Yak-9 had to go down in the Soviet records around 11:00 Moscow Time. There was no such loss!

The 8 VA IL-2s and Yak-3s near Olomouc flew their mission between 08:00-08:50 local time. They collided soon after they left the target ~ around 8:30 LT. This means that the Yak-3 and the IL-2 (More precisely 565 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 9816, Ml.lt. Shishnev bailed out and 112 GvIAP Yak-3, S/N: 0829227, Gv.Lt. Kuzin, KIA) were already burning on the ground for about half an hour, when Hartmann claimed 'his Yak-9' over Brno much closer to his airfield around 09:00 local time. (The Ju 88 mentioned previously was spotted and reported by the regional PVO claiming 4 dropped bombs, which caused no damages.)

Considering all of this, everything that happened in the Olomouc area (The Soviet 60th Army, the Soviet 8th Air Army, the observed German planes, etc.) is completely irrelevant and independent regarding Hartmann’s 352nd.

Cheers,
Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello

- As I read, Hartmann flew during 8.30 - 9.20 hours It was only 80 kilometers to Brünn, so it would be around 160 kilometers back and forth. Very slow with a Me 109 and for a long time.

- Then I wrote "possible". As in the Russian Report (Фонд 346, Опись 0005755, Дело 0229) reads "fog and smoke" there was a collision which means poor visibility.

This topic is finished for me.



Thanks
BenFolk

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk
Yes, Hartmann's sortie ended at 09:20 LT, so he returned to his base immediately after his Yak-9 claim at 09:00 LT over downtown Brno. Problem is no Soviet fighter was lost in the entire Brno area throughout May 8 1945, not a single American Mustang was in the area (let alone 12, that he mentioned which 'forced' him to leave the region), he flew alone (so no witness), or at least his wingman was never specified who confirmed his final kill... He stated that he was full of hate when he saw the Russians over Brno (understandably due to the just lost war) so I think by anger and as a final emotional revenge he pushed another (fake) claim into his tally... Long story in short: Nothing, I say nothing supports his Yak-9 'victory' for May 8, 1945! If it was not just a made up story, then it was just another overclaim, which confirms my original, December, 2019 statement, that based on tons of wartime records, he could have about 80, max. 100 real victories during WWII, not 352. (Don't get me wrong, it's still many, BUT: it's not a world record, not even close.)

About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records.

Do not worry, it is very important and critical to analyse all possible options in order to get to the truth, so if you find anything else, let us just discuss it.

Cheers,
Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,

"About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records."

Only check Helmut Lipfert to see a lot of difference...


regards

[Nick Hector]

Foennekold is another good example

[Monaco]

As Iwan (Lawrinenko) is preparing another book on Föbbekold and Wolfrum I questioned him if their real successes (= founded in soviet records) are higher than that of Batz he agreed and said he believes they are even higher than Hartmann's.

[leonventer]

Hi Monaco,

Originally Posted by Monaco

As Iwan (Lawrinenko) is preparing another book on Föbbekold and Wolfrum...

Sounds interesting. Could you or Iwan provide some more details, especially since he and Michael Meyer already covered Fönnekold in their book "Drei Falken der II./JG 52", published by Helios in 2020. (BTW, the other two 'Falken' were Barkhorn and Lipfert, but the book also includes quite a bit about Wolfrum, Batz, Düttmann, etc.)

Is the new book intended to complement the info on Fönnekold and Wolfrum, or update/replace it?

Of course, it would be great to see the same rigorous analysis applied to other aces (e.g. Kittel, Rall, Bär, Weissenberger, Graf, etc.) in additional volumes...

Thanks and regards,
Leon Venter