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Old 8th April 2012, 09:59
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Hello,

I'm trying to puzzle out some photo mysteries with early KG26 photos. On P. 75 of the excellent de Zeng/Stankey book, "Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945" Vol I, it shows, in color, "The badge of I./K.G.26 (sic) comprised a white seated lion in profile on a green shield." However, on P. 81 it says the "Aircraft of the four Gruppen of K.G.26 carried the seated lion emblem: black on a white shield by the first Gruppe, red on a white shield by the second, black on a yellow shield by the third and black on a blue shield by the fourth." The second Gruppe colors of a white shield with a red lion, motto and thin outline is confirmed in a color photo on P.84. Another well-known color photo shows the described I Gruppe insignia of a white shield with a black lion, in this case apparently a 3 Staffel a/c (yellow prop spinner front).

My problem is the first reference to I./KG26 having a green shield with a white lion, which seems to contradict the second reference in the same source. I have photos showing an He111 with a dark shield and a white lion, that I've been evaluating for a profile. It apparently shows 1H+BB of Stab I./KG26, that I strongly suspect was taken on the first day of the war: 01.09.39. This clearly has a dark (green?) shield and a white lion and motto. All other early war I./KG26 aircraft photos seem to show a white shield and a black lion. Is it possible that there is a typographical error in the de Zeng/Stankey book and the Green shield is for I Gruppenstab a/c only, while the subordinate Staffeln all used a white shield/black lion? Are there other photos of early-war Stab I./KG26 He111s showing a dark shield and white lion for the unit insignia?

I note that the de Zeng/Stankey book directly contradicts the Ketley/Rolfe insignia book, "Luftwaffe Emblems 1939-45," P. 54, which shows, in color, the I Gr insignia of white shield/black lion, II Gr yellow shield/black lion, III Gr a red shield/black lion, and makes no mention whatsoever of a green shield/white lion version. I believe the II and III Gr insignias in this standard reference source (currently undergoing revisions) are incorrect.

Does anyone have any photos or other reference material that can clarify if only Stab I./KG26 flew He111s during the early war period with a green shield/white lion, and can confirm that III./KG26 flew a/c with a yellow shield and a black lion? Do color photos showing this latter version of the insignia exist? What about the Gesch Stab of KG26 during 1939-40? What color shield/lion combination did it use? Photos on the Humbie He111, 1H+JA from Stab./KG26, shot down in Scotland on Oct 28, 1939, clearly show a light colored (white?) shield, with a dark (black, or even possibly blue?) lion.

It drives me nuts that after 70 years we still don't have the answers to these kinds of questions on such a well-known unit.

Who can help resolve this?

I would post photos illustrating these problems but I've used my max space to post photo images on this board, and I don't want to drop photos from my previous posts to make room for more images in the event that someone will eventually help solve older mysteries posed by those photos. Is there any way to increase the MB that I can post on this website? I'm planning to start duplicating a lot of my posts on the LEMB Board, where Peter Evans has kindly offered to create a separate section for EoE reference posts, but I'd still like to be able to post additional photos on this Board as well. Are there any options? I know that there are some people who don't read both message boards.


Regards,
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Old 8th April 2012, 14:31
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ianatheling ianatheling is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Hi Larry
I have these photos of a stricken He111 with the white Lion. Unfortunately the complete code is not visible. No other info, other than a provisional crash date of 1940.

Ian

PS. I hope that you resolve the image posting issue here. Due to vanishing posts and constant blocking at the LEMB caused by spam filtering issues I will probably not see your posts there.
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Old 8th April 2012, 14:49
jim norton jim norton is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

hi,

there will be a new kg26-book published this year. it will furtunately replace the old rudi schmidt one. what i have heard until now it will have more than 500 photos and full losslist.

all the best
jim
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Old 8th April 2012, 19:18
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Jim,

Thanks for the news on the new KG26 book. Most welcome news. I presume that that may clear up many of my questions about unit markings and insignias. Any idea of the title and when? In the meantime, I've got to forge ahead with my early-war layouts for the unit's He111s, so I'm hoping that people with either expertise or photos relating to my questions will respond.

Regards,
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Old 8th April 2012, 19:43
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Clint Mitchell Clint Mitchell is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianatheling View Post
Due to vanishing posts and constant blocking at the LEMB caused by spam filtering issues I will probably not see your posts there.
Hi Ian, at the moment there should be no reason at all why your IP is being blocked. If you are still having problems logging in, it is unfortunately a problem your end.

Now back to Larry's sterling efforts...
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Old 8th April 2012, 21:21
ChrisS ChrisS is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

It would be good to have more, even unlimited photo space on this forum. I dislike removing photos from old posts as then the context of the post is lost. Is there anything that can be done? Certainly at LEMB there is no problem with posting photos, and I have never lost a post or had one go missing.

Jim do you have more details please on the new book, it would be a 'must buy' for me!
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Old 8th April 2012, 22:32
Jim P. Jim P. is online now
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Same here.
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Old 9th April 2012, 18:14
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

Hi!

In the book Achtung -Torpedos los by Rudi Scmidt the following colours are mentioned:

Blue/White - Stab
Black/White - I.gruppe
Red/White -II.gruppe
Yellow/White - III.gruppe
Green/White - IV.gruppe

The same colours is said to be on the propellor tip.
This is on page 30 in this book.

Maybe I am wrong, the book is in German, not my best language :-) ..
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Old 9th April 2012, 20:16
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

John Fredrik,

Thanx. I have the book but hadn't seen this info. Unfortunately this doesn't square with my photo of what I think is a Stab I./KG26 He111 with a dark shield and white lettering, nor with the color rendition and caption in the recent de Zeng/Stankey book on Luft Bomber Units. My photo certainly doesn't show either a Gesch Stab or IV./Gruppe a/c, the only ones with dark shields and white lion/motto.

Something is still not straight here. Otherwise, I think that the Rudi Schmidt info is correct for the various Gruppen of KG26. Did the Gruppenstab of I./KG26 at the beginning of the war use Green shields for the Gruppenstab; that seems to be the question?

Regards,

Larry
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Old 10th April 2012, 16:50
jim norton jim norton is offline
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Re: The mystery of insignia colors on KG26 He111s during 1939-1940

hi,

the old schmidt-details concerning colors etc. should be handled with care. schmidt even doesn´t knew the luftwaffe-unit-code-system. but still his book is the only one about kg 26.

the new book should be out at the end of the year - these are the latest news i´ve heard from a friend. i looking foward seeing more info about this project, too!

all the best
jim
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