2/196 airbattle near Sardinien 29.09.1943?

[ju55dk]

Does anyone know wich spitfire-unit was involved in this?

Junker

[Laurent Rizzotti]

They were French Spitfires and the fight happened off Bastia. The fighters were on a sweep to attack German aircraft and barges evacuating the island.

I'm at work and don't remember the precise unit (GC I/3 and GC II/7 were involved in this campain IIRC) but have the details about this battle from the French side at home.

[ju55dk]

Thank's it would be nice to se what the other side experienced!


Junker

[David Pausey]

Hi

I have the unit as GC I/3 and the losses as below


29.9.43



Bordfl.St.2/

196



Ar196 W.Nr 0355

T3+DM



Ofw Wilhelm Elke

Lt Norbort Meier



E of Korsika

Sd by French Spitfires



GC I/3







Bordfl.St.2/ 196



Ar196 W.Nr 0372







E of Korsika

Sd by French Spitfires

GC I/3



My info came from a French mag which I can e-mail a scan to you if you whant ?
Regards
David

[ju55dk]

Thanks for the french unit involved, but the german losses are mentioned in the KTB. I'm more interested in the mentioned shooting down of a spifire, if it did indeed happen?


Junker

[Laurent Rizzotti]

On this date, Germans were evacuating their troops from Corsica by boat, barges and aircraft. These troops, that were based in Corsica and Sardinia before the Italian surrender on 8th Sep 1943 were gathered in Bastia area for evacuation and were fighting against French resistance members, French regular soldiers and Italian troops, but not on a heavy scale. Their worst losses were at sea and in the air.

I have two versions of the aerial battle:

On this day, 5 Spitfire V of GC 2/7 "Nice" and 6 of GC 1/3 "Corse" took off at 16h30 from Ajaccio (SW Corsica). The first were ordered to attack the ships, the latter to escort them and attack transport aircraft. They flew east and crossed the eastern coast ner Ghisonaccia, gathered 30 km off the coast then flew to Bastia. Three pilots of GC 1/3 reported 4 aircrafts at 11 o'clock and attacked. They were Ar196s.
According to the book "Pilotes français sur l'farique du Nord et la Corse", two were shot down on the first pass, one in flames and the other turning too sharp to avoid the attack and spinning to the sea. Two other were then chased and are claimed as shot down in the group's history. Victories were awarded to capitaine Prayer (2), lieutenant Brunet (1) and sergent-chef Sarrail (1). During this battle the Spitfires of GC 1/3 saw 7 Ju52s flying in formation towards Bastia and attacked them, claiming four shot down and 2 badly hit. German gunners return fire didn't hit seriously any Spitfire. French pilots returned to Ajaccio at around 18h10 with no more ammuntion.
According to the magazine "Aérojournal n°10", capitaine Duval of GC 1/3 saw the Ar 196 and led his formation to attack them. But in the heat of the action, he mistook the security of his guns with his brakes (?) and was unable to shot. His wingman, lieutenant Jacquet, thought his leader had recognized friendly aircraft and didn't shoot either. WHen he recognized German markings if was too late but the French fighters returned to attack and shot down two (one in flames, one spinning in a turn and crashing in the sea, as above). The two last fled towards the open sea and led the chasing SPitfires right on a formation of 7 Ju52s flying to Bastia and they shot down 4, taking some hits by return fire but nothing serious. The claims are according to AéroJournal: capitaine Prayer (leader of the 1st escadrille of the groupe) 1 Ar196 and 1 Ju52, lieutenant Brunet 1 Ar196, sergent-chef Sarrail 1 Ar196 and 1 Ju52, capitaine Roger Duval (leader of the groupe) 1 Ju52, adjudant-chef Martin 1 Ju52.
The "Aérojournal" version is probably more accurate than the first one. And is the only one that provided details on all victories scored, even if it didn't tell how the 3rd Ar196 was claimed ?

During these aerial battles, the Spitfires of GC 2/7 attacked barges and ships and met intense AA fire. They claimed a great troop-carrying barge on fire but the adjudant Bourdon was hit by the Flak and had just the time to tell it on the radio before crashing in the sea.

Source:
"Pilotes français sur l'Afrique du Nord et la Corse"
Aéro-Journal n°10
some details about pilots on http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/

So to reply to your last question, yes a Spitfire was shot down but not by Ar196s, as the squadron that met them suffered no loss.

[ju55dk]

Hi.

A big thank you for providing these informations. There are som differences in the story told by both sides! But in the end two Ar 196 were lost, and they did not shoot down a spitfire! One last question. How many spitfires were involved in the battle with the Arados?

Junker

[Laurent Rizzotti]

The GC I/3 formation was involved in the attack on the Ar196s and was 6 Spitfires strong. They possibly flew in patrols of 3 aircraft. I guess that both patrols attacked but as I said the first attack failed because of the fault of the leader and then probably the second patrol attacked and hit one Ar196, another crashing while trying to evade them. Another possibility is that they flew in 3 pairs but five names of pilots are given that attacked or tried to attack, so my guess is that all pilots took part of the action, but maybe not all fired.

I am not fluent in German. May you can translate your attached text above ?

[ju55dk]

Thank's for that.

The german text in short:

4 Ar 196 was flying antisubmarine patrols near the coast of Sardinia, when they were attacked by 12 spitfires. Ar 196 +DM was shot down killing the crew, and +EM then claimed a spitfire before beeing hit and set on fire. +EM was able to land on the water, and crew took to the dinghy. They were later picked up unhurt. During this battle the spits saw some transports(Ju 52) and turned against them, thus allowing the remaining 2 Ar's to escape and land safely back at base.

As to be seen there are som differencies by the paticipants on what happened, wich is of course natural, in the heat of battle.

Junker