RAF Crashes - Will We Ever Find the Truth?

[Observer1940]

I am not very hopeful, see attachment.

Annex O-1 from March 1992 Change No 6 (attached with 2010 cover) and reference to "Change No 28" dated "October 2010" regarding JSP 440 dated 2003 and "2003 (November) - Review Activity Hayes" ... (has been removed by me), due to part being marked "O1 Restricted".

Mark

[John Beaman]

Excuse my ignorance but what is this in reference to? Were you trying to get a file from some archive?

[Observer1940]

Hello John

I have been trying to find answers for over a decade to my questions about the full circumstances leading up to the loss of my Grandfather's RAF Whitley and her crew in August 1940.

I know that a collision occurred seconds before the crash, but other official records strongly suggest that there were other events which occurred beforehand and connected.

The attachment suggests that official accident file was either not found, or possibly destroyed, when I tried to get access to see the accident file under the FOI Act.

Mark

[edwest]

Hello Mark,


Do you know the aircraft's number? Other markings? Squadron? I attempted to view the PDF but was unsuccessful.



Ed

[dp_burke]

Marks previous posts identify the aircraft and the info he has found, rather than duplicating things he has typed in the past.
Click on his name above and click option for previous posts or threads

Or: Google Whitley P5044 and you will find Marks area of interest on bbc, rafcommands, many places.

[Observer1940]

Hello Ed

Very, very, briefly the Whitley was to descend from 10,000 feet down to 5,000 feet over our coast as part of an ID ruling. The Whitley, kept losing height with all the last turns for 16 miles only to the right (Observer Corps plots), to eventually crash amongst the barrage balloons at Eastleigh.

Part of the wing was found two miles from the cable and Red Flares (a sign of distress over the sea) had been seen about 11 minutes beforehand to the South near Sandown, IOW. The Whitley was also on fire before striking the ground.

"Loss of control after hitting or avoiding obstacles in bad visibility" (being F6) was changed, becoming F9 Obsure or undetermined. Next F8 "Miscellaneous" Cause was then given, which was changed to F4 Flying into ground in cloud or fog. There is no Force Landing Form reference number. However a second Index Card exists for a former "U" file registry.

Other accidents with the "U" Index number reference have various causes from aircraft fire, airframe structural failure, wing failure, certain types of engine failure, icing, carbon monoxide poisoning, lack of oxygen, blacking out, or the aircraft diving (unable to pull out) until striking the ground.

I believe I have collected every reference to the crash I can possibly find and attempted to find all other Bomber losses that night, acquired all Squadron, Group, Command and Fighter 10 and 11 Group and Fighter Command ORB copies, but know that both the official file (AHB) and information I have, are missing some vital pieces of information.

Although I have some theories, research in official files is continuing, but how much better it would have been to have safely kept the file in full, rather than only keeping what appears to be a provisional summary, which it states, the exact time and other details were unknown.

Mark

[edwest]

Hello Mark,


I'll do what I can on my side.




Best,
Ed

[Observer1940]

Hello Ed

Thank you.

My post 6 has been amended to remove the connection with the AIB (Accidents Investigation Branch), to the "U" numbered Index.

Regarding "U" indexed accidents, I have got some official document copies confirming that most of the U Indexed crashes were where the aircraft was descending and either:-

i) failed to level out before striking the ground
ii) levelled out okay, but then dived again and struck the ground

Some also came out of cloud at an angle and struck the ground (as though icing, or some natural upward/downward force within the cloud caused the crash)

The "U" Indexed crashes were referred to a specialist research Branch who it seems held the U Index. The Branch appeared to have filed the Whitley P5044 crash in "C 4/9", which might suggest that it was in their Group C.

My official information for Groups A to C crashes, regarding a Group C crash is:-

"Group C: Accidents in which loss of control was preceded by engine or airframe failure."

A letter to the Second Pilot's family in South Africa stated that there was nothing that the Captain could have done and the accident was totally outside of the Pilot's control.

Mark

[edwest]

Hi Mark,


I am very uninformed with the British system of keeping records, where and by whom. Did you check reports from the Balloon Squadron which may have witnessed the collision?



Best,
Ed

[Observer1940]

Hello Ed

Balloon Squadron ORBs and neighbouring Squadrons, surviving Balloon Command files (incl Policy files), including balloon collision / impact / balloon cable / wire / balloon policy files of the Air Ministry, including the collision and policy files of Fighter Command, the Admiralty and Bomber Command were checked. The numerous collisions do appear on a tabulated lists.

However what was discovered was that when Bomber Command received all the Bomber collision Reports with balloon cables, not all Balloon Collision Reports were entered onto their AIR 14 collision file and just one single sentence in the whole of the AIR 14 file reveals that some of the bomber collision Reports with balloon cables were being passed to Bomber Command G/Capt Ops [in charge of Bomber Operations], as though it was some problem of the Bomber Command Operations Directorate to deal with and not primarily caused by the balloon cable itself.

AIR 14/341 "Damage Caused to Aeroplanes by Balloon Barrage" on the cover was photographed. No Minute Sheets appear to have been changed and there are no Balloon Command Reports refering to the two Whitley crashes that morning and no suggestion or reference that the Reports were ever placed on the file either in 1940! The two Whitley bomber 15.8.1940 Collision Reports from Balloon Command were never placed on AIR 14/341 and therefore could not have been removed. There is not even the slightest reference on the Minute Sheets (index) at the front of the Bomber Command file AIR 14/341 to the two Collisions or the two Reports from Balloon Command.

The primary cause was not the balloon cable, but something else and that is confirmed by the changes to (4 different) Cause codes on the Accident Card.

Out of some 50 or so War Diaries of AA Units, only the AA Brigade, Division and Corps have a one sentence reference to a Whitley bomber hitting a balloon cable at Eastleigh.

The most reliable record are the surving Logs of the Observer Corps who are commended for their plotting by Fighter Command, with the last 16 miles of the Whitley with all the turns, also that they could not determine the engine sound and that the Observer Corps Centre had been given the height as 10,000 feet and how the aircraft lost height and crashed into the balloon barrage at Eastleigh.

Mark