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  #41  
Old 15th May 2012, 23:23
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
Nick, thank you for the lead. Is there also a possibility that translations of this kind can be found at IWM Duxford or the AHB? If so, is there any way that a private individual can ask to gain access to those archives? I have next to no research experience myself, having only ever looked at some AIR files on the Desert war in the National Archives. This makes me wonder whether one has to be a researcher of some repute to get into either Duxford or the Air Historical Branch.
The IWM has a website, so you could contact them and ask about Duxford. I've only ever written to the AHB, so I can't answer your question. I don't quite see why either would be preferable to visiting the Archives at Kew (unless you live near Duxford). Kew has the advantage of being purpose-built for researchers.
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  #42  
Old 16th May 2012, 00:00
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
The IWM has a website, so you could contact them and ask about Duxford. I've only ever written to the AHB, so I can't answer your question. I don't quite see why either would be preferable to visiting the Archives at Kew (unless you live near Duxford). Kew has the advantage of being purpose-built for researchers.
Nick, I am sorry for not making my meaning clear. The reason I mentioned Duxford and AHB is that I was considering the possibility that the documents in question are only available at one of those two locations, rather than Kew. I would much prefer to visit a London location, so perhaps I am inventing problems for myself!

Quite apart from the documents mentioned by Artie Bob, I was thinking specifically of Hooton's reference to the following: RAF Air Staff Post-Hostilities Studies, Book 21: "Luftwaffe Activity I" (IWM AHB 6, Tin 192, frame 1071-85). I seem to remember that this document, or book, is meant to be at Duxford. I'll check Hooton again tomorrow, the present description is from this link:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...7ac8c#p1434579

Have you ever come across the above source? AHB 6 should be the translated documents, but I have never come across an "IWM AHB" reference.
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  #43  
Old 16th May 2012, 10:18
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

IWM had some AHB 6 microfilms which I saw about 20 years ago at the Museum in Lambeth. Why not contact them and inquire what they have now?
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  #44  
Old 16th May 2012, 14:39
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

Hi.

I have been working on these issues for several years, and think you are in some cases in this thread overcomplicating, and in others oversimplifying.

With regards to the 'big numbers' - total losses - these are available for statistical use from a couple of sources.

I will see if I can provide some detailed information over the weekend.

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #45  
Old 16th May 2012, 18:57
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
IWM had some AHB 6 microfilms which I saw about 20 years ago at the Museum in Lambeth. Why not contact them and inquire what they have now?
Nick, thank you for remembering that from so many years ago! I'll definitely contact them, possibly next week.

I've found the reference in question in Hooton's "Eagle in Flames". It is the source for "Table 40. Breakdown of Aircraft Losses, April 1941-June 1944" on page 156. The reference itself is as follows: "RAF Air Staff Post-Hostilities Studies, Book 21: 'Luftwaffe Activity I' (IWM Tin 192, fr.1071-85). Figures extrapolated from 'Einsatzbereitschaft der fliegende Verbaende'". The reference to extrapolation is somewhat disappointing, but Ted Hooton used other IWM sources which caught my interest.

The most interesting of those other sources appears to be a set of frames preceding the ones above. For example, "Luftwaffe Activity I, Vol. 1, IWM Tin 192, fr. 1041" is the source for "Table 53. Luftwaffe Activity on the Eastern Front, 1944" on page 205. The table shows the breakdown of sorties and losses by Luftflotte, sorted by aircraft mission categories.

Nevertheless, none of the above resembles the source mentioned by Artie Bob, so I would be very glad if he could give the reference for it.
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  #46  
Old 16th May 2012, 19:04
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
Nick, thank you for remembering that from so many years ago! I'll definitely contact them, possibly next week.
The stuff I was looking at was in German, by the way and I wasn't looking for the things you are. Still, you can but ask.
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  #47  
Old 16th May 2012, 19:06
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
Hi.

I have been working on these issues for several years, and think you are in some cases in this thread overcomplicating, and in others oversimplifying.

With regards to the 'big numbers' - total losses - these are available for statistical use from a couple of sources.

I will see if I can provide some detailed information over the weekend.

Regards,
Andreas B
Hello Andreas.

I am sure I am doing both, since I have very little understanding of the limitations of the source material. Thank you for offering to provide information, I'm very interested!

Paul Thompson
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  #48  
Old 16th May 2012, 19:19
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
The stuff I was looking at was in German, by the way and I wasn't looking for the things you are. Still, you can but ask.
Nick, thanks for the words of caution. I hope my rudimentary German can stretch to looking at loss tables, but otherwise I'll have to see if I can use a dictionary on my laptop. By the way, I've worked out where I remember Duxford from. Hooton's 2010 Luftwaffe book contains 5 tables with references to "IWM, Duxford, Tin 30 Frames K3312-3356". The first of these is "Table 9-4: German fighter activity in the East 1944," which lists monthly sorties by day and night fighters. It also contains a very strange set of loss figures, but I'll refrain from commenting on those, hoping that Andreas introduces some clarity!
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  #49  
Old 18th May 2012, 19:39
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

I've put Ted Hooton's loss data for 1944 into a table:
Luftflotte 1 460
Luftflotte 4 1055
Luftflotte 6 905
Luftflotte 2 816
Luftflotte Reich 4370
Luftflotte 3 4563

Total East 2420
Total West 9749

At last, some figures match. The 2nd table on the page on Don Caldwell's site contains essentially identical information:

http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/thtrlosses.htm
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  #50  
Old 20th May 2012, 22:12
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

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Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
Nick and Graham, thank you for your ideas!

Nick, your description of RL2 III/881 closely matches the layout of the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen available on Michael Holm's website. Are they indeed the same or similar?

The gist of what both of you are saying seems to be that Ted Hooton's totals are most likely those for aircraft lost or damaged beyond repair, minus any which were eventually extensively reassembled. I've looked at my notes again and I've found that on page 213 of the same book Mr. Hooton describes a similar set of figures for the Eastern Front as relating to aircraft destroyed or severely damaged. I am guessing that this should mean aircraft sustaining 60% damage or greater according to the Luftwaffe classification and so you are right.

However, all of the above raises a couple of "global" questions. Did the Luftwaffe really lose such a large proportion of aircraft to non-combat causes? Is this an exception or the rule among the air forces of World War Two? I find myself at a loss to answer those.

I've reproduced the Mediterranean table below to show the magnitude of the non-combat losses. Nick, I hope it might also give you some idea of how the calculations were done, by giving more data to compare with any totals that you may have.

Table below:

Quarter Year EA Accident Ratio of EA to Accident
Q4 1942 423 489 0.87
Q1 1943 448 471 0.95
Q2 1943 677 461 1.47
Q3 1943 1114 578 1.93
Q4 1943 261 129 2.02
Q1 1944 458 162 2.83
Q2 1944 421 162 2.60
Off topic, but could you do this table for Q4/41 and Q1/42?

All the best

Andreas
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