Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

[Broncazonk]

My suggestion, as it pertains to Hartmann, would be to establish a Hartmann working group comprised of the experts on this forum. We have all of the people required on this forum to finally, and definitely, resolve this matter. Furthermore, we have experts who could structure, document and mediate the effort to ensure maximum accuracy and fairness.

In my mind, the Hartmann issue is a tough one. The pilots of the Luftwaffe knew who the fakers and over-claimers were, and those people were not asked to join the post-WWII German air force. Hartmann was asked to join, and he was well regarded within the Luftwaffe and post war. This alone is definitive evidence in my mind that the issue is far more complex than merely comparing records in Germany and Russia.

In my opinion, the members of this forum have the resources and capability to accurately address this matter in an ethical manner. And we should. (Not 'me' of-course, I'm completely out of my depth, but the usual suspects. Everyone knows who they are.)

Such an effort, one that discloses it's research methodology and principles from the very beginning would be credible, and the work would be historic.

In the end, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, as I'm sure we all do.

Bronc

[HGabor]

Bronc,

In February, 2014 in the topic called: "German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...", #125, 133, 139, 140, etc. we have already gone through many of these details. Huge difference in reliability between Hartmann, Lipfert and others. And I am not the only one who says this, but even some Russian researchers as well. But from the distance of over 70 years, I do not know any better method to clarify things other than comparing written records of German and Russian Archives. The Russian records are excellent, listing their planes in service quarterly, as well as their losses by AC S/N, engine S/N, etc... in multiple levels of records.

Again, I do not say that Hartmann didn't encounter his reported opponents, I just say that most of his credited 'victories' finally returned to their base and after repair went back to service = weren't real victories.
Cheers,

Gabor

[knusel]

Originally Posted by Broncazonk

My suggestion, as it pertains to Hartmann, would be to establish a Hartmann working group comprised of the experts on this forum. We have all of the people required on this forum to finally, and definitely, resolve this matter. Furthermore, we have experts who could structure, document and mediate the effort to ensure maximum accuracy and fairness.

In my mind, the Hartmann issue is a tough one. The pilots of the Luftwaffe knew who the fakers and over-claimers were, and those people were not asked to join the post-WWII German air force. Hartmann was asked to join, and he was well regarded within the Luftwaffe and post war. This alone is definitive evidence in my mind that the issue is far more complex than merely comparing records in Germany and Russia.

In my opinion, the members of this forum have the resources and capability to accurately address this matter in an ethical manner. And we should. (Not 'me' of-course, I'm completely out of my depth, but the usual suspects. Everyone knows who they are.)

Such an effort, one that discloses it's research methodology and principles from the very beginning would be credible, and the work would be historic.

In the end, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, as I'm sure we all do.

Bronc

That's exactly what I meant. Great suggestion, Sir !
The issue definitely deserves a another thread than this - or much better - your proposed "Hartmann Working Group" made up of the most renowned experts dealing with the matter in a scientific and fair way.

To answer Nick's question: As a mere member of the audience I prefer the info that is substantiated by evidence or eminence until the results of that working group are published.

[Nick Hector]

Always happy to help...

(...a big acknowledgement to yourself and Nokose by the way....)

Otherwise, the silence on this matter is deafening. Funny how they all go quiet once the speculation ends....

[Juha]

Gabor and Nick
thanks for your Hartmann info.

Juha

[HGabor]

You are most welcome.
Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Juha,

Anytime.

Nick

[Nick Hector]

Thanks, Falke Eins.

But let's get back on topic if all of this is such a completely different thread.

How about we ask Knusel to clarify his aim. Which of the following is he actually trying to achieve:

Re-writing or updating the lists of aces in the back of such books as Barbas's Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, or perhaps more comprehensively the one in the back of Toliver and Constable's Horridoh...
...and then combined with those in the unit histories published by Prien, Roekker et al....?

Knusel, Michael if you prefer, some of us are confused and would sincerely like to know how best we can assist you. Please clarify...

[Juha]

Sorry, I put this at first onto the original thread.

IMHO I’d not like to speak honesty/dishonesty even if there are cases of fraudulent claimers. Just because it much easier to dig out real world facts than figure out someone's motives. I think it simply the question that some can appraise the results of their actions more objectively than others. And then there is the effect of used tactic, Hartmann preferred hit and run tactic and as in the case of the Flying Tigers, this easily produced overclaims. Lipfert, who seems to be exceptionally objective claimer, was more diverse in tactics he used and didn’t shun close in dogfights. He also seems to be above average in a/c recognition, which made it easier to verify his claims.



Juha

[HGabor]

More for Hartmann:

328: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m (One 486 IAP La-5FN loss (S/N: 39212724, Snagovskii KIA) at 11:55 over Ercsi- too big difference. A recce. La-5 pair against 6 Fw 190s. 2nd La-5FN (S/N: 39211776) of 177 GvIAP (pilot: Vereshak) was downed around 14:05 in dogfight/flak.)
330: OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: ???, probably OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m (2 Yak-9 losses of 513 IAP, but one was a landing accident in soft soil at 13:20 after IL-2 escort (Fokin, Yak-9D, S/N: 19166063), the other one (Fedosov, Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361) was downed at 13:50 by flak. 513 IAP also lost one of their Po-2 messenger biplanes: S/N: 640314, pilot: Durakhov. All 3 pilots were OK. 150 GvIAP lost a Yak-3 after Baracska mission at 1000 m against 20 Fw 190s on landing at their airfield: S/N: 2329218 at 14:50, pilot: Kamanian was unhurt.)

Gabor