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  #141  
Old 8th February 2014, 00:21
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Gabor,

B R I L L I A N T.

For the Yak claimed on 25.2.45, I found this info a long while back that might help you:

This was most likely Romanian Bf109G W.Nr. 166248/"Yellow 9" of Grupul 9. Adj. Stag Av. Traian Darjan KIA

Source: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/darian/darian.htm

Are you able to provide the serial numbers of the Bostons claimed on 8th January, 1945

Nick
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  #142  
Old 8th February 2014, 00:38
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Additionally, for his victory on 14.3.45:

I originally had on my listing, 116 IAP. Kapitan Anatolii Alexandrovich Pantelkin HSU, OL, 2 x ORB, Order of A Nievskii, OPW 2nd class and ORS (18 kills), KIA.

Was this also a possibility?

Nick
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  #143  
Old 8th February 2014, 01:52
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Nick,

On January 8, 1945 Lipfert downed A-20B-DL, S/N: 41-2937 first with the Lt. Vetlov crew. Her nickname was "За Победу!" - For Victory! - (See her well known photo below, taken in Bulgaria still in the fall of 1944.) She was a single plane, leading the 449th group and by waving the wings tried to pick up the Yak fighter escort from the airfield of Börgönd, Székesfehérvár-S when Lipfert caught her. Exploded mid-air.

Second he shot out A-20G, S/N: 43-21588 from the formation. Only the pilot, Lt. Kruglov bailed out, but hit the vertical stabilizer, lost his consciousness and did not open his parachute. His body was found far away from the plane. The rest 3 went down with the plane.

The third soviet Boston, lost on this mission was S/N: 43-9596, piloted by Lt. Larionov. It was downed by Lipfert's wingman, Sepp Prokoph. This entirely crew survived, but all 8 men in Lipfert's planes died. The soviets collected the bodies and took back for a regiment ceremony and funeral to their base at Madocsa. They were buried there.

As of the engines the soviet mechanical papers wrote them off together in a common list, so it is hard to match them properly to the planes:

43-104269-23
43-104259-23
57293-23
36247-11
43-102944-23
43-155228-23

Since only one was a regular A-20B, R-2600-11 type engine, therefore 41-2937 must have had mixed engines installed. (An A-20B and an A-20G engine at the same time!)

La-5 on March 14, 1945 - Pantelkin, (HSU):

Answer: NO.

Lipfert downed the La-5 at 12:07 PM near Székesfehérvár. Pantelkin was shot down at 15:00 PM local time at Sárkeresztúr in his 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5FN, S/N: 39212869, engine: 8213627, tactical '69', while protecting 10 (12, but 2 early returned) 136 ShAD IL-2s. He was ambushed from the back by a 'new model Fw 190'. (?) This really could be anything, a Bf 109, or even pure politics to cover the Hero's fatal mistake by a new, fantasy model's superiority. No Doras in Hungary, anyway.

ml.l-t Iozhitskii (л-т Иожицкий, POW) was downed at Székesfehérvár in his La-5FN, S/N: 39211637, engine: 8211279, tactical '37'. His flight of six 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP La-5s took off from Tököl airfield at 11:45 AM to cover 12 IL-2s in the Székesfehérvár area. This perfectly matches the battle of 12:07 PM, local time!

So Pantelkin was downed by another pilot for sure, NOT by Lipfert. Lipfert downed л-т Иожицкий (POW) for sure.

Rumanian Bf 109G on 25.02.1945 can be just a speculation, as two 5 VA, 513 IAP Yak-9Ts were lost in the same area. Not sure about it.

I hope this clarifies the cases. Cheers,

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 26th September 2015 at 16:17.
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  #144  
Old 8th February 2014, 03:40
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

One of the Bf 109 G-6 of the AAR 9 Grupul shot down on the 25Feb45 was the ace Traian Darjan. Also ask about on that day in another thread was Prince Constanin Cantacuzino but no answer was fore coming. This is not to say that Lipfert shot down Darjan but could be possible.
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  #145  
Old 8th February 2014, 09:54
Alfred26
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Hi, all.

Sorry for my bad english, I use translator.
I am interested in the details of air battles 23 and 27 October 1944:

In the first case H. Lipfert said two victories (148 - 149 Il 2; 15.31-32 local time), but ltn. Peter Düttmann and obfhr. Steins also downed Il 2 in this dogfight (Steins claim 15.33, Düttmann claim 15.34 local time)
In total, according to the German data, were downed four IL 2.
What is the real lost Il 2 in this combat for all reasons (fighters, AAA) ? Can we assume claims Steins and Düttmann reliable?

In the second case, 27 October, H. Lipfert very recounts in his memoirs about the dogfight with Il 2 and two fighters (probably, Yaks). Lipfert downed Il 2 (12.17 local time) and one of the fighters (12.21 local time), and his wingman Steins downed the second fighter (12.18 local time). Later Lipfert personally inspected the wreckage and the dead pilots (one of the fighter pilots was HSU).
In russian reports (5, 17 VA) should contain information about the losses (Il2, Yak, La) that day. Maybe, there were shot down not Yaks and other types of fighters (eg. La 5, P 39) ? Maybe, being lost aircrafts carried on the next day (eg 28.10.44) ?
Interesting details combat sortie Il 2KR (207 OKRAP), under what circumstances it was lost ?
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  #146  
Old 8th February 2014, 11:42
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Alfred26,

Good point! On October 23, 1944 the soviet 5 VA lost 4 IL-2s to fighters indeed. So all claims reliable that day! 5 VA, 131 GvShAP lost 3 IL-2s, (S/N: 10620, 302820, 1873563), the 132 GvShAP lost one (S/N: 18753100). Since the 3rd 131 GvShAP IL-2 (S/N: 1873563) returned -and broke- on its base, it was either Düttmann's or Stein's victory, as Lipfert's both victims (S/N: 10620 and 302820) crashed in the battle area for 100%. (1st exploded, 2nd lost its tail.) So the 3rd returned and was a write-off, but the gunner was missing! They found traces of blood in his seat. He either fell, or jumped out from the plane during the mission. The plane returned only with the pilot. Originally it was only damaged during the fight, but finished-off on the base. It was a write-off, probably used for parts later. It is interesting, that the 131 GvShAP lost an IL-2 from all 3 main IL-2 factories this day:

1xxxx from Factory No.1 at Kuybishev,
18xxxxx from Factory No.18 also at Kuybishev and
30xxxx from Factory No.30 in Moscow.

On October 27, 1944 the airfield of Debrecen was strafed by about 6 Fw 190s and 8 Bf 109s. As a result a Yak-1B and a Yak-9M fighter of the 5 VA, 513 IAP was destroyed, 7 Po-2 biplanes of 930 NBAP, 2 IL-2s of 451 ShAP and another 3 unidentified planes of the 18 TAP were damaged. Several people died or wounded as well. A La-5FN and a Yak-3 was lost during the missions as well as probably two 207 OKRAP IL-2KRs. No details on their mission, only personnel losses, so I do not know. Note that the 207 OKRAP lost 4 airmen this day. Since it was a mixed Recce. regiment, flying IL-2KR and Yak-9 Recce. planes too, these losses could be 2 IL-2s -OR- one IL-2 and two Yak-9s! As I have no plane data for 207 OKRAP for this day, anything is possible. Maybe a single IL-2 loss as 'yours' plus 2 Yaks for other German claims. I have no idea. No other known permanent 5 VA IL-2 loss this day anyway.

See, the soviet papers are tricky. Mechanical papers reveal plane info without crew names. Personnel papers give crew data without plane info. Regiment journals give a bit from each. So in order to get a full view, you need to see a whole arsenal of documents, as opposed to the American MACRs where practically everything is together for the case. Soviet research is like a puzzle. Very interesting, but takes lots of time and patience.

Cheers,

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 8th February 2014 at 12:18.
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  #147  
Old 8th February 2014, 13:12
Alfred26
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Gabor, thanks ! Very interesting !

Yes, it is very likely that downed Il 2 and two Yak 9 were part of the 207 OKRAP.
May be able to find more information about the events of that day, knowing the name and surname of dead pilots (eg. databases WWII losses or other sources) ?

Two other plane (La 5FN and Yak 3) were also lost in combat missions? The pilots of these planes were lost ?

Best Regards,
Alfred
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  #148  
Old 8th February 2014, 13:47
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Mechanical paper of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP lists two (Omsk, Factory No.166-built) Yak-9D and one IL-2KR recce. plane loss between November 1-15, 1944. Chances are these 3 planes were the losses on October 27, 1944 as prev. days' losses - depends on how long investigation and paperwork took:

IL-2KR, S/N: 10948, AM-38F engine: 256676
Yak-9D, S/N: 19166066, engine: 415-1037
Yak-9D, S/N: 19166078, engine: 415-90

So it looks like the 4 airmen lost on October 27, 1944 flew 2 Yaks and one IL-2 indeed. This is based on the plane info only, no combat details, even if their names are known.

Both La-5 and Yak-3 pilots survived the battle and were taken POW.

Gabor
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  #149  
Old 8th February 2014, 14:24
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Hector View Post
Gabor,

B R I L L I A N T.

For the Yak claimed on 25.2.45, I found this info a long while back that might help you:

This was most likely Romanian Bf109G W.Nr. 166248/"Yellow 9" of Grupul 9. Adj. Stag Av. Traian Darjan KIA

Source: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/darian/darian.htm

Are you able to provide the serial numbers of the Bostons claimed on 8th January, 1945

Nick
Hello, according to his memoirs, Lipfert was alone when he attacked the two Rumanian 109s, so he didn't have a witness to his victory, did he made the claim? Sometimes pilots didn't bother the paperwork if they thought that it would be a fruitless effort.

Juha
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  #150  
Old 8th February 2014, 14:39
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

At least it is not in his claim list...
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