ID of two Hurricanes down in France in 1940

[Larry Hickey]

I'm trying to get photos of two Hurricanes entered into a data base and I'd like to see if anyone has any further information on either:

1) QO*T probably down May or June, 1940. I know that this is a 3 Squadron A/C, but Peter Cornwell indicates that about 10 from that unit were lost under circumstances that could result in an intact crash-landed a/c during the French Campaign. Another photo of this a/c recently sold on eBay, leading me to believe that someone out there may have a photos showing the serial number, which isn't evident on the photo I'm working with.

2) The other is probably from either 1 or 73 SQ and contains only the letter "F" as the a/c code. On the back is written something like Blair- or Blain-Le H?avre 30.7.40. The "H" in Havre is not certain, looks more like a G to me. I know that this would be the date the photo was taken, not the date of loss, which was probably also during the 1940 French Campaign.

Has anyone got dates, locations, pilots or plane serial numbers to identify either of these photos? The lower two prop blades were bent on #1 and all three blades were bent on #2, indicating it may have bellied in at speed. Both of these photos are fairly rare for downed Hurricans in France, as they do not (yet) have all the fabric stripped off the fuselage.

Thanks for any assistance.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

May not be the one but thought it might help.

13th May 40.
F/O Clisby force landed his damaged N2326 of No. 1 Sqn coded "JX-F" .

I also have 73 Sqn a/c "H" P/O. F. Sydenham kia 26th May 40.

Alex

[Jerome Ribeiro]

Hello Larry,

Re point 2, please note that there were 2 airfields listed by the French Air Force for le Havre area:

• Le Havre-Octeville
• Le Havre-Bleville

The 2nd airfield name would comply to your quest.
Regards

Jerome

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Alex

Can I ask for your sources regarding the losses you quote?

RAF Fighter Command losses Vol 1 quotes Clisby in a totally different Hurricane BUT acknowledge the serial number might be wrong. However nothing were corrrected in neither Vol 2 nor 3, so what do you have that Franks doesn't?

Also he does NOT state any 73Squadron loss on the 23rd of May. Again source please

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hello Stig,

Nice to hear from you again.

Re Clisby.

12 days in may page 112., Also 103/4.

73 Sqn was a BEF loss, Frank's is all Fighter Command .

Alex

[Bernard]

Hello there,

73 squadron wasn' t B.E.F but 67 Wing A.A.S.F.

Hurricane N2326 was shot down on the 2nd of april 1940 near Metz at about 11h50 by Werner Moelders. N° 1 squadron P/O C.D Palmer baled out safely.
Source: AIR50/1. AIR27/1.


On the 13th of may 1940 N° 1 squadron lost three Hurricanes:

L1673. F/O Billy Drake shot down at 07h00 by a Me110 near Vouziers baled out safely.

L1694. JX-F. F/O L.R Clisby during the same engagement shot down a Heinkel He111 wich force landed. Clisby landed his Hurricane by the
german aircraft and secured the crew prisonner. After having handled the five men to the french authorities he damaged his aircraft' s propeller
during engine warming up. L1694 is abandonned.

L1681. F/O R.L Lorimer during the same engagement washit by return fire and force landed at St Loup Terrier.
Pilot safe but aircraft destroyed.

Source: AIR50/1. AIR27/1. AIR35/252. AIR35/253.

Best regards.

Bernard.

[Larry Hickey]

So, let me sum up where we are in the identification of the two Hurricane's in question. The 3 SQ machine, really no progress.

Is my assumption that only 1 SQ and 73 SQ marked their Hurricanes with only the individual letter during the French Campaign? If this is true, the plane with only the letter "F" on the starboard side in front of the roundel has to be from one of these two squadrons. Correct? Mark Sheppard has separately sent me a communication that tends to eliminate a 73 SQ machine, although this is far from certain. This leaves a 1 SQ a/c as the strongest candidate, of which Clisby's JX*F seems to be the likely culprit. The aircraft in question is entirely intact, but the plane wouldn't have carried the "JX" part of the code, only the "F," right?

It appears from the photo in question that the highest prop blade has the tip broken off, the lower one is almost compltetely broken away, and the other is seemingly completely intact. This could fit the description of Clisby's aircraft, although it is not sitting on its gear but is on its belly, which doesn't seem consistent with Clisby's circumstances, unless the propellor damage was caused by a gear collapse. Also, wouldn't he have destroyed the aircraft rather than abandoning it completely intact except for a damaged propellor? Anyone else got any insights into this situation? The airplane does carry a SN, which would solve the issue, but it isn't clearly visible from the angle of the photo.

On a related subject, does anyone have photos of other Hurricanes or Spits down in France during the May-June 1940 period, from which identification evidence can be gleaned: unit codes, serial numbers, locations, etc? As those who've worked the photos know, the Hurricanes in particular often had the fabric stripped away by souvenier hunters who rendered identification or the wreckage impossible, after the aircraft had been in place for a while. I'd be willing to exchange photos with anyone else who can help resolve the identities of the skeletons of all the wrecked Hurricanes photographed by the Germans as their troops encountered these crashed or crash-landed aircraft. This is for a major project on the subject that will eventually be published.

Thanx for the help,

[Alex Smart]

Hello Bernard,

Thank you for the corrections.

However the details I gave came from books by respected authors so I had no reason to doubt the info. How did I miss the FCL note on Palmer on page 13, N2326.

Fighter Command War Diaries vol 1 does list the 73 loss as a BEF loss. see page 76.

Again many thanks for the details and refs.

Larry , Drake's a/c was coded as "P" wether "JX" before or after roundel I know not.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

hi Larry,

Take a look at Ed Wests e-bay offerings.
There are two or three photos of Hurricanes .
Wingless, ready for transporting , by rail or boat ? a crane like framework in the background.
alex

[Franek Grabowski]

Larry
Many Souffan did some articles for Replic magazine back in 2000 I think which covered both Hurricane markings in France and RAF ace, Cobber Kaine. They were very well illustrated but in French (gosh!). I suppose you may contact him directly via this board.
PS Correct abbreviation for Squadron is Sqn.