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  #1  
Old 2nd April 2015, 12:28
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Hello,

The link below describes a forced-landing of a P-51 pilot between Löhrbach and Ober-Abtsteinach, Hessen, Germany (ENE of Mannheim), on 2 April 1945. According to witnesses, the already wounded pilot died of his wounds on site shortly after the forced landing.
http://www.morr-siedelsbrunn.de/%C3%...l%C3%B6hrbach/

Neither this pilot or the unit is identified, and I have been unable to find a possible ID for him (I found two P-51 pilots killed this day but one in Austria and one in Denmark area).

Any idea ? 354th FG was involved in an air battle not far away, but AFAIK suffered no loss.

Last edited by Laurent Rizzotti; 2nd April 2015 at 14:54.
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Old 2nd April 2015, 13:34
pdame141 pdame141 is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Laurent:

Based on the code YF-D and name "Sweet Stuff" I think this P-51D was from the 8th AF Second Scouting Force based out of Steeple Morden.

I found online records (at http://www.littlefriends.co.uk) that suggest this was s/n 44-11341 and assigned to Cap. George Ceglarski, but there appears to be some confusion as to the serial between the ship shown in the picture you linked Capt. Ceglarski's later P-51K "Sweet Stuff II." The Little Friends site also has a picture of Capt. Ceglarski with the later ship.

Fold3 doesn't have an MACR for Ceglarski, so it seems likely that another 2SF pilot was flying YF-D on 2 April 1945.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Paul Dame
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Old 2nd April 2015, 14:45
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Thanks for searching, but my understanding of the German text under the picture is that the picture displayed was not taken on this crash site, but that the forced landed P-51 on 2 April 1945 probably looked like the one displayed on the picture.
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Old 2nd April 2015, 16:33
pdame141 pdame141 is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

My lack of German strikes again. Well, at least I learned something new about the 8th AF Scouting Force. I'll keep digging as well as I'm intrigued by the mystery.
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Old 2nd April 2015, 17:49
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Hello,

From Accident-Report.com webpage


44-11341 - P-51D - 441126 - United Kingdom.
44-11341 - P-51D - 450108 - United Kingdom.

And from Aviation Archaeology webpage

441126 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 4 - Ceglarski, George W - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.
450108 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 3 - Castleberry, Marvin H - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.

.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944
has -

11341 (2nd Scouting Force, 355th FG) crashlanded at RAF Steeple Morden, Cambridgeshire, England Jan 8, 1945.
Pilot survived but aircraft was destroyed.


So perhaps not this aircraft after all?
Perhaps the photo of her was used as an example ?

Here are the known P-51 MACR's for 45/04/02 -
13641 - 44-14462 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Parker - KIA.
13642 - 43-24784 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Davis(MACR) OR Southern ? - KIA.
13688 - 44-11890 - 3FG/8FS - China - Pilot KIA.
13965 - 44-13814 - 364FG/385FS - North Sea - Hassell - Never found.
14148 - 44-14467 - 325FG/318FS - Hungary - Murphy - RTD.

Here are the known P-51 Accidents for 45/04/02 -
44-63486 - 332FG/99FS - Italy - Barland.
44-15662 - 479FG/436FS - England - Sherer - RTD.

Alex

Last edited by Alex Smart; 2nd April 2015 at 20:09.
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Old 3rd April 2015, 00:07
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

There is no doubt the aircraft in the photo is 44-11341 of the 2nd SF but the damages look totaly different of the ones suffered on 8 January 1945 (http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/8884).

May it have been repared after all ?

I found nothing in Bill Marshall's book about the 355th FG and 2nd SF for the 2nd SF on 2 April 1945 but may he have something to add about this photo...

Regards

Alfred
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Old 3rd April 2015, 02:37
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Hello,

Photo caption says -
" Thus, the emergency landing machine might have looked ".

So Not the actual aircraft involved but purely shown for example of how the crashed aircraft might have looked.

As for the date, was the 2nd April 1945 Easter Monday ?

Also, it seems that the area was no longer in German hands as the US troops arrived as did a "Storch" which landed near the crashed aircraft and was crewed by Americans.

So it would not have an MACR as was in Allied territory, perhaps an accident report but if not an accident then perhaps not.

Pilot was wounded and was removed from the aircraft, and died, so would have been recovered at some point, his IDPF would give full details, but for that a name is required.

The wreckage was later recovered by a US unit so possible recovery report exists ?

9th AAF aircraft near to this date was a PR version the day before 04/01/1945, possibly named "Guarding Angel", an F-6, 42-103216 - 111TRS - Germany - MACR 13654 - Carl A. Sodermark.

The only other explanation would be either RAF or French P-51.
Stretching it perhaps another "Bubble" hood type, such as a Typhoon or Tempest ?

Looked at MACR 13654 and it just might fit...



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=83964551

Note date of internment - 7/1948.

alex
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sodermark, Carl A Page 3.jpg (185.8 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Alex Smart; 3rd April 2015 at 03:35.
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Old 3rd April 2015, 05:19
pdame141 pdame141 is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

All:

Absent another good candidate, I concur with Alex that Lt. Sodermark's F-6 fits the bill. By way of further check, I ran the coordinates given in MACR 13654 through the grid conversion tool at http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php.

The first grid given (R-7868) corresponds to the town of Waldangelloch, and the next (R-7795) is further north, which corresponds with Lt. Schutt's report that he and Sodermark turned north towards U.S. lines after Sodermark was hit. Morever, both R-7868 and R-7795 show as almost due South of Lohrback where the crash is recorded.

Moreover, based on the maps I can find of the U.S. ground offensive in this area of Germany, this area was a very fluid frontline area 1-3 April 1945 that would likely call for armed recce attention.

None of this explains the apparent discrepancy between the MACR compiled on 3 April 1945 that unequivocally states that the mission on which Lt. Sodermark was lost took place on Easter Sunday 1 April 1945 and the equally unequivocal statement on the German website Laurent found that states the crash happened on Easter Monday 2 April 1945.

Best regards,
Paul
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  #9  
Old 3rd April 2015, 08:15
ssg keay ssg keay is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Personally, i am not sure I have the right guy here, but I have the IDPF for a LT Carl A. Sodermark, a member of a TAC Recon Sqdn, who was buried at Unterschwarzbach, with an estimated DoD of 31 March 1844. That is a good 250km SE of the original site of Loehrbach. Grid there is given as R906867. Danny
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Old 3rd April 2015, 08:16
ssg keay ssg keay is offline
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Re: P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

Oh, and he was buried first by the US at the temp. cemetery at Bensheim.
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