15(Kroat)/JG52 and microfilms

[focusfocus]

Hello all

Why,the claims of 15(Kroat)/JG52 don't appear in the list of T.WOODS(microfilms),unlike those of 13(Slow)JG52?....same theatre of operations,the two units being administratively attached to JG52.

There is a very specific reason?..it's curious that it is a "simple" error!

ex:20/04/43
2 claims by 13(Slow)JG52 (microfilms) but nothing about the 3 claims including one not approved by 15(Kroat)/JG52

idem 27/04/43
8 claims (13(Slow) and again nothing about the 3 of Kroat.
etc.etc...

Any idea?
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Without being specific on this. The mikrofilms basically have five types:-

!= a typed-out mikrofilm listing all claims for a specific Staffel, but only until the daily mikrofilms begin.

2= Daily mikrofilms listing all claims on each of the fronts(East and West) these begin for some units(including JG52) on 23/07/1942, the latest units joined this method in the Summer of 1943, they continue until October 1944 when JG5 no longer uses this method, and the last date....an incomplete one has just one claim in the west for 01/01/1945. January 1944 in the West claims are missing. Certain SG units claims are sporadic when they were most active in Spring/Summer 1944.

3= Staffel mikrofilm listing date and time only, these are generally run current with the above, but do have the January 1944 in the West claims.

4= This is like the second type, but listing all claims on the daily bases for all units, but only A.S.M/v.n.e-a.s.m claims from the beginning until the daily mikrofilm claims start in 1942.

5= This is a personal listing in alphabetical order of all claims by a pilot, but like the third type listing date and time only, but the only pieces to survive are those with letters Kr-L, and then excluded from the list are claims missing from first type mikrofilm. This mikrofilm's coverage ends in June 1944.

Now to be specific. The first type of mikrofilm i.e the typed-out per Staffel for 15./JG52 has not survived, moreover the secon type i.e daily entries didn't begin until 29/10/1943......they didn't claim between this date and 08/06/1943, then these daily mikrofilm entries cease on 28/02/1944 which would be the last claim before the unit was dis-banded.

In existence is a 15./JG52 dairy written during the war, which lists all claims, but in a blatant act of legal piece making the U.S.A destroyed the library they were housed in and half the volumes were destroyed. The destruction of this none-military target is likely to have been opportunist as another target(again none-military) was the Chinese embassy which was destroyed twice....killing it's occupants. Can't see a motive for destroying the library, I can only image it was to destroy history itself. I don't think these missing volumes were ever copied, hopefully they were but just have not yet come to light.

Hope this is a good explanation.

Keep well

Johannes

[focusfocus]

Hi Johannes

Thank you for your answer.
Regarding the list of claims (15(Kroat/JG52),Boris Ciglic (well known on the forum) known more.
I have this list (hyper detailed) starting on 02/11/41 and ending on 05/06/44 published in a French magazine written by . Ciglic (really exellent work)

Best Regards
Michel

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Michel
*******************
In existence is a 15./JG52 dairy written during the war, which lists all claims, but in a blatant act of legal piece making the U.S.A destroyed the library they were housed in and half the volumes were destroyed. The destruction of this none-military target is likely to have been opportunist as another target(again none-military) was the Chinese embassy which was destroyed twice....killing it's occupants. Can't see a motive for destroying the library, I can only image it was to destroy history itself. I don't think these missing volumes were ever copied, hopefully they were but just have not yet come to light.

Hope this is a good explanation.

Johannes

Hi Johannes,

Could you possibly elaborate on this? It's the first time I've heard that the USAAF intentionally targeted libraries during the war, military or otherwise, much less the embassies of its allies, as was the case with China. This claim is right up there with the allegations made by BA-MA archivists over the years that all of the missing Luftwaffe records from 2. Weltkrieg are hidden in the United States and were never returned in the 1960's as agreed to and promised.

Thanks,

Larry de Zeng

[Johannes]

Hi Larry

This came from my tour-guide in Belgrad. Her best friend was killed when he was walking on a major bridge, he was a civilian, but i guess a bridge is a reasonable target. Tour-guide said they tried to save the library books, and they were dumped on the surrounding grass. Why if so the Chinese embassy was destroyed twice is also a mystery, but perhaps the U.S.A's beef with China goes back a bit.

Regarding missing mikrofilms, I heard that the trucks transporting the goodies were attacked, and one destroyed. This makes sense that some were missing before the wars end, as the mikrofilm listing ALL claims for individual pilot omits those who's Staffel's film no longer exists i.e they had nothing to work with.

Regarding bombing a library, why not, wouldn't be in the top hundred worse things the U.S has done since WW2. I seem to remember the head of the CIA releasing his memoirs after his death, as he himself seemed ashamed of some of his Countries doings, killing all those schoolgirl in Lebanon seemed to haunt him, and the destruction of Haiti.....for no other reason than money/greed. The World is increasingly not a nice place, and with the embassy I can only imagine that taking over the World in a relatively peaceful manner must be an infringement of the domination rules, probably to do with arms sales, but I could just be over cynical.

Keep well

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Larry

… i guess a bridge is a reasonable target … Why if so the Chinese embassy was destroyed twice is also a mystery

Johannes

Johannes,

You wouldn't be here if you weren't interested in the history of air warfare, and if that history teaches us anything it is that bombers have rarely hit what they were aiming at. My father's home was wrecked in 1940 by a German plane unloading its bombs, apparently because it didn't get to Liverpool. A small chapel near my mother's childhood home was destroyed in 1942 by Fw 190's apparently trying to hit the main railway line (and they were supposed to be attacking another town).

If you want to discuss post-1945 warfare, there is another section of the forum for that.

[Larry deZeng]

Johannes,

Thanks for your courteous reply. I won't take this any further because your mind set is anchored in concrete, i.e., my country, the United States of America, is responsible for all that's evil and bad in the world.

But I do have a final comment. Documents, papers and files of 15.(kroat.)/JG 52 would NEVER have been located during the war in a library adjacent to a bridge in Belgrade/Serbia. They might have been in a library on the Sava cesta in Zagreb/Croatia, but NEVER in Serbia. Nichts wahr? I also strongly doubt the presence of a Chinese embassy in wartime Belgrade, which was occupied by the Germans from April 1941 to the end of October 1944.

Cheers,

Larry deZeng

[sidney]

Gentlemen,

I feel that there is a misunderstanding here - Johannes in his post No.2 was referring to the second bombing of Belgrade, that of 24 March 1999.

It was then when the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was damaged/destroyed.

Johannes failed to appreciate an estimated 1 million Albanian refugees, who flooded FYMR Macedonia, Greece and Albania fleeing the Serbian forces before the attack, which threatened to destabilize the whole region. That was culmination, and the end, of the third war in the Balkans (1991 - 1999).


Regards,
Sinisa

[edwest2]

If I may add a side note. Depending on whether they were friendly or otherwise, certain buildings were looted and certain documents were confiscated. All sides did what they could in this regard. It is easy to think of sovereign countries in Europe during the war, but the fact is that occupiers used records or hid records for the purpose of "legal" maneuvering. And "political" enemies could end up in prison.


As far as intelligence, foreign embassies in Europe were sources of intercepted intelligence. Of course, buildings were bombed by accident but there are documented cases where some targets were not bombed due to their post-war value.


The mystery of what Allen Dulles was doing in Bern, Switzerland may never be fully explained. He was an attorney, nothing more. His duties with the OSS, or Office of Strategic Services, seem to be far beyond the knowledge of a civilian. After all, most of what they did was classified. According to their operational head, William Donovan, "We killed people and blew up things." Yes, that and more. But I have not seen a single in-depth account of OSS operations.


Before the end of the war, the US did hide sensitive information that included more than secrets. It was clear that the Russians were going to keep as much land as possible in Europe and keeping them in the dark regarding what was known by the Allies was a requirement. As far as German records, I have read an account where some documents that were among those to be returned to Germany were found in another location, separate from the rest.


In Germany, "private collections" are known as well. A book has been written about German negotiations with the US to get captured documents returned. These negotiations occurred over decades.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Sorry I wasn't clear, library was hit with hit with modern bombs, during let's call it the latest Balkan war, with one assumes guided weapons, and with cameras. As quite resent there is always the hope that some interested historian did photocopy them, but just don't know. Can't remember the President, but possible a victim of George war Bush's attack on Global tourism ....and justification for a Noble peace prize no doubt, but could be any, though I have noticed Republicans are rather more warlike, rather like the Tories.

The Balkans has been a mess since the end of WW1, areas split sometimes with regard only to divide, not properly separate individual peoples, convenient borders along rivers e.t.c. The only peaceful divide seems to have been Czechoslovakia. A century of fighting doesn't seem to have resolved much.

I would guess that fighting for peace is a contradiction.

Kind Regards

Johannes