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  #1  
Old 14th January 2012, 10:59
stefaan stefaan is offline
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BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Hi Guys.
To all the chaps that helped a while back.
I have evidence that that Bf 109 77022 may have been on an airfield shared by 250 RAF Sqdn.
Since this was end of the War it must be one of the following Airfields:
From Nov 44 till Sep 46.
1.Fano
2.Cervia
3.Lavariano
4.Tissano
For you guys in the know, it may help to work out the Unit of the 109.
Nick Beal, any info from your side??
Stefaan
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  #2  
Old 14th January 2012, 12:52
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

If it was a G-10 then the sixth digit of the Werk Nummer is missing.

As far as I know, the 770 series were G-10/R2 reconnaissance models and so if yours was in Italy it should have served with NAG 11. The unit was based at Udine-Campoformido from late 1944 through to the end of the war. There were several Bf 109 G's found on Italian airfields for which no details were recorded (often because they were too badly damaged to find any i/d), including five at Campoformido.

(770223 was delivered to NAG 3 in Luftflotte 6 in April 1945, so you can eliminate one aircraft from your enquiries, at least).
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  #3  
Old 14th January 2012, 13:31
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Hello Stephan and Nick,

Tending in count the new info given by Stefaan:
I don't pretend to give an answer but just to remind what Ferdinando did say in his post #22:

"Other have already answered, but FWIW I can add that recce aircraft were clearly of no use to the ANR fighter units.

So much that, when the 1° Gruppo was re-equipped in February 1945 with new Bf 109s, a couple of G-10/R2s were (erroneously) among the deliveries coming from German Luftparks.

Those, namely W.Nr. 770 184 and 770 209, were immediately flown to NaGr.11 in Campoformido on 27 February
"

Good to notice is that Tissano and Campoformido are BOTH in Udine area just separeted by 12,8 kms following Google maps!

Good to notice, too, that 770184 & 770209 were received by 1°Gruppo, yes!.. But not only: 770184 was received by 2°Squadriglia and it appears it was coded 2-5. 770209 was received by 3°Squadriglia; no code given.

Now, read again, and think about what Roland did write in his post #20....

Whatever, Tissano/Campoformido sounds good for me, and 77022x is most probably one of the "5" left at Campoformido; That is NAGr. 11.

Last if you eliminate 770223; what's left? And Nick didn't say that ALL Five were G-10/R2; just Gs

Regards, Franck.
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Old 14th January 2012, 14:41
stefaan stefaan is offline
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Hi Franck, Nick.
The photo was given by Golding, 3 sqdn SAAF.
I see he was based at Udine May -Aug 45.
That corresponds to Waldek, so it must be Udine area.
Nick, did you see previous post with the photo??
I would go with Franck, as Udine thus Tissano most likely.
Now we must look at some 250 RAF sites/books to see if there are other photos of this a/c somewhere and we will know.
They may have photographed it as well.
Hope that helps.
Stefaan
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Old 14th January 2012, 15:34
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefaan View Post
Hi Franck, Nick.
Now we must look at some 250 RAF sites/books to see if there are other photos of this a/c somewhere and we will know.
They may have photographed it as well...
That's exactly what I'm thinking about!
Good luck; quite impossible no one haven't shot this one!

Franck.
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Old 14th January 2012, 15:50
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Hi there Stefaan, Nick and Franck,

According to the list of aircraft found at Campoformido compiled by Nick, Ferdinando and Gabriele Valentini, there were 11 Bf 109's, an Ar. 34, two Ju 188's and a Ju 88 found by No. 1 Forward Intelligence Unit (F.I.U.) Party B on 25 May 1945:

Of those 11 Bf 109 G's, 5 are positively identified as G-8's (W.Nr. 201129, 201134, 230132, 230144, 230292) and one more as our already noted Bf 109 G-10/R2 W.Nr. 770338. All those machines belonged to NAGr. 11.

The five remaining were found as follows:

- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out
- Bf 109 G, demolished, 1x MG 151 only
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out, 1x MG 151 only
- Bf 109 G, completely burnt out, 1 x MG 151 only.

Except if the above mentioned planes were destroyed by Allies after the takeover of Campoformido, giving thus a chance for Goulding to take a picture of a plane gutted at a later but before 25 May 1945 date, there is no chance for W.Nr. 77022x to have been seen on Italian soil in May 1945.

As for Tissano, there are no plane reported to be found there at the end of WWII. Maybe Nick can tell us more?

Source: Beale, (N.), D'Amico, (F.) and Valentini, (G.), (1996): Air War Italy 1944-45. The Axis Air Forces from the Liberation of Rome to the Surrender, Airlife, p. 214.

Cheers
Marc
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Old 14th January 2012, 22:36
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by ouidjat View Post
Good to notice, too, that 770184 & 770209 were received by 1°Gruppo, yes!.. But not only: 770184 was received by 2°Squadriglia and it appears it was coded 2-5. 770209 was received by 3°Squadriglia; no code given.
Just a couple of precisations:

I own an original copy of the listing from where the info supplied by Ouidjat were apparently derivated (supplied directly from Argentina many years ago by the Deputy CO of 1° Gruppo, Cap. Robetto, who had preserved the original...). It is worth to precise that the 770184 didn't receive the indicated codes, but was simply planned to. Quite a difference. This was furtherly stated by Robetto at a precise question. Such written listing reported also the codes of the three K-4s of the unit, but to date this is only an indication of their planned identity, not any confirmation at all of that... and those stayed with the unit until the end...!

Turning back to the hypothesis that the "77022x" of the photo was one of the aircraft found at Campoformido, there is a simple fact against that: should a G-10/R2 in such conditions had been found by the Intelligence unit examining the field, its presence and the codes would have been in that report. The fact that it isn't so leads only to one conclusion....it wasn't there.
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Old 14th January 2012, 22:42
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

thanks for the precisions Ferdinando;

In your opinion, any chance that one of those planes might have been gutted in a kind of V-E Day bonfire after allied takeover and before 25 May? this is the only hypothesis which could conciliate the fact - the picture - with the surmised location -Friul. If not, then definitely in the Austrian or German Alps then!

Cheers
Marc
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Old 14th January 2012, 23:01
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Everything is possible, but trying to use hindsight 65 years later we enter in the field of theories and hypothesis, impossible to validate with the facts actually available.

Maybe a listing of the planes used by NAGr.11 would help... if such a thing would magically appear...

Just to add one more hypothesis, even the civilians could have scrapped aircraft before the Allied took hold of the airfield, considering how much valuable metal scrap was then, but I wouldn't bet on it and it is very improbable that after Allied troops arrived they destroyed anything if not following orders... and Udine was occupied by the British 6th Armoured Division on 2 May, only one day later the Germans abandoned it, and I cannot imagine any British soldier looting enemy material if not ordered to.

But that's only my opinion, of course.
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  #10  
Old 14th January 2012, 23:06
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Re: BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

Quote:
Originally Posted by veltro View Post
Just a couple of precisations:

I own an original copy of the listing from where the info supplied by Ouidjat were apparently derivated (supplied directly from Argentina many years ago by the Deputy CO of 1° Gruppo, Cap. Robetto, who had preserved the original...). ...
I don't know, but from an extract - a photocopy - from one of your book for sure. In the same listing we can find a G-16 too ... must be a typo.
That the code was or not used isn't explained.

Last, Tissano isn't exactly Campoformio and there is an airfield in Tissano. In fact two, without talking about Rivolto, Palmanova and San Mauro in Udine area. All in less than 30km one from each other (Except Rivolto to San Mauro.. must be 50kms); roughly, I didn't take the time to get the true distances.

Salve, Franck.
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