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Old 5th February 2015, 09:07
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Hello,

In working on EoE Profile packages for the NJG1 Bf110s for the last six months of 1940, essentially the very beginning of the creation of the Luftwaffe night fighter organization, I've found a couple of examples circa mid-1941 that some NJG1 Stab a/c at either the Gesch or Gr level might have carried fighter style stab markings in front of their fuselage unit codes. Two examples, one for certain from Stab II./NJG1 around Sept, 1941, have come to light. This particular one was <G9+BC, but on the other only the code <G9+ is visible. Does anyone have any other examples of this practice on Bf110s during the early days of the night fighter forces, particularly examples with symbols other that a single chevron, such as a double chevron for a Gr Kdr's a/c? If this system was used, does it date back to 1940, or was it only adopted during 1941 or later?

Any help here with either photos or information would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 5th February 2015, 12:03
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SES SES is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Hi Larry,
A couple of grabs from e-bay. It is noteworthy that G9+AA does bot carry the double chevron.
bregds
SES
Attached Images
File Type: jpg V 2012-11-27-108[1].jpg (83.6 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg V bf110-02-190712[2].jpg (84.4 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg V Foto_ME_110[2].jpg (138.1 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg V Bf 110 falck 2.jpg (114.1 KB, 66 views)
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Old 5th February 2015, 20:24
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

SES,

Thanx. These are extremely helpful. I did have the first one, which I was referring to in my original posting. Can't determine the ID of the rest of the code. The trick here is to date these. Does anyone know whose ac is represented by the second photo with the Gr Kdr chevrons, aor what the full code would be? Also, would the fourth a/c be Falck as Gesch Kde, but with his scoreboard only on the port side? Anyone have a date or place for any of these?
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Old 5th February 2015, 20:27
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Hi Larry,
My pleasure. As for AA it should speak for itself. A Kommodore's aircraft.
bregds
SES
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Old 5th February 2015, 21:20
Merlin Merlin is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

post #2

second photo: shows G9+AC, the aircraft of Hptm. Ehle during June 1942

third photo: looks to me like a early Bf110B without armament from Stab I./ZG 76 during the autumn of 1939

fourt photo: G9+AA taken during a business tripp of Falck to Rumania in late summer 1943.
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Old 5th February 2015, 22:01
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

SES & Merlin,

Thanx to both of you. This helps clarify the use of chevrons on NJG 1 a/c. Clearly they were used by II./NJG1, as we now have photos of two examples, G9+AC & G9+BC, but unfortunately these photos do not clarify the issue of whether NJG1 Stab a/c carried any chevrons or other Stab symbols in 1940. Is there any further evidence out there that I don't know about? The photo of G9+AA during the summer of 1942 also doesn't clarify what markings, insignia nor a/c subtype that Falck would have been flying as Kde of NJG1 during the second half of 1940. Again, does anyone have any further evidence of info relating to that issue?
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Old 8th February 2015, 10:55
René Brachten René Brachten is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin View Post
post #2

second photo: shows G9+AC, the aircraft of Hptm. Ehle during June 1942
Hello,

I am not so sure that this picture was taken in June 1942. According the score list of II./NJG 1 (RL10/572) and the original wooden scoreboard of NJG 1, Hptm. Ehle had his sixth night victory at 30.6.1941. There are three day and six night victory signs on the rudder; it is therefore quite possible that this picture was taken in 1941.

Regards,
René
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Old 9th February 2015, 05:37
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

René,

Thanx for your information and comments. Ehle's a/c with II./NJG1 is one of the aircraft I'd like to profile, so photos of a/c that could be backdated to the end of 1940, are possibly very helpful.

In the meantime, it is certain that II./NJG1 Stab a/c carried chevrons and standard Stab symbols, probably from the very beginning, because essentially the aircrews came from I./ZG76, and they brought their aircraft directly from their previous group directly into II./NJG1. These Bf110Cs and Ds already carried Stab symbols from their service with I./ZG76, and kept using these markings, even after the crews eventually got new a/c. Initially, these aircraft began flying in NJG1 in the markings they carried in their original ZG units, ie. Luftwaffe day fighter camouflage for "C" and "D" aircraft, but with codes changed to "G9." What is crucial to doing an accurate series of profiles of these early night fighters is to know when these aircraft received their all-black night camouflage schemes. At present, that is a mystery to me, although it was very likely to have been sometime late in 1940 or early in 1941.

Apparently, neither the Geschwaderstab, nor the Stabs of I and III Gruppe carried similar markings. Apparently II./NJG2 also carried them, but this unit was not formed until Sept., 1941, so this is irrelevant to the EoE Project.

Who has further information and/or photos that might help settle or illustrate these issues?
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Old 10th February 2015, 14:09
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Furthest aircraft
http://www.grootheers.be/assets/imag...ajoor_Ehle.jpg
http://www.grootheers.be/html/vliegt...ns_wo_ii_.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7FLYVHUCbE...140655%2Ba.jpg
http://alifrafikkhan.blogspot.co.uk/...jabs-1917.html
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Old 10th February 2015, 20:50
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Seeking into on the use of Stab symbols on 1940 Bf110s from the Stab elements of NJG1

Revi,

These certainly suggest that at least by the time that Jabs commanded NJG1 that they were using chevrons with the unit code. The Ehle photo is 1942 or later, but still shows that II Gruppe continued to use the Stab symbols, probably throughout the war.

Thanx for sending these. Very helpful, although not directly relevant to any particular profile problem that I'm trying to solve.
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