First Luftwaffe victory over RAF

[Brian]

Hi Rob & Tony & others

Is the conclusion that the Sheer shot down the Bf109D of 2/ZG76 - therefore a friendly fire incident?

Cheers
Brian

[RodM]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Tony, your sentence states "the first Luftwaffe victories in WWII" which is not exactly "the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF in WWII". I have found that war on the east is often ignored, hence my reaction. No pun intended.

...but read the topic title! I have found that the topic title and original question are often ignored on this forum, hence my reaction.

Cheers

Rod

[tcolvin]

I spoke too soon.
Yes, Brian. Bringing down the Bf109 was regarded by Scheer as a friendly fire incident.
Was it piloted, by the way, by Lt Falke (Sylvester) or Lt Fake (Rob)?
And was 2/ZG26 operating a) out of Jever and b) on a standing patrol? It is my assumption that there was no radar detection or control in those early days.
Scheer's KTB records shooting down three German aircraft in four days;
1) Sept 4, this Bf109 shot down and the pilot killed while the Flak barrage was shooting at the Blenheims. Mellum was a couple of Kms north east of the Scheer. This must have been Falke/Fake
2) Sept 5, a Ju52 was shot down
3) Sept 7 another Ju52 destroyed.
On Sept 5 the KTB of Marinestation der Nordsee in Wilhelmshaven included this entry (my translation).
Cooperation between Fighter aircraft and ship-mounted Flak (Schiffsflak).
Because of the shooting down by Scheer of one of our fighter aircraft, the question was examined of how to increase the safety of our own aircraft with regard to our artillery. Recognition signals are insufficient. (E-S.-Sterne unzureichend.) The fighter pilots state that recognition signals are ignored. For the time being the following regulation has been agreed with Fighter Command (Fuehrer der Jagdgruppe): "No fighter aircraft will fly over the Jade and the town of Wilhelmshaven". Additional regulations (covering better recognition signs such as the placing of lights, painted signs and definition of flightpaths and prohibited zones) will be worked out with Gruppe West". (source: Die Luftverteidigung im Abschnitt Wilhelmshaven 1939-1945 by Friederich August Greve; ISBN 3-9806885-0-X).

[tcolvin]

To answer my own question; http://www.ww2.dk/misc/ob1939.htm states that 2/ZG26 operated out of Werl. But that is too far away in North Rhine Westpahlia. So it must have been Varel.

[christian]

Hi

The 2./ZG 26 came from Varel. Leutnant Hans Falke was killed in a crash at Mellum Plate in a combat with a Blenheim. Unteroffizier Richard Woick shot down a Blenheim in the same area.

Greetings Christian

[tcolvin]

Thank you Christian.

But Unteroffizier Richard Woick is a new name.
And if confirmed then Woick's destruction of a Blenheim on September 4, 1939 becomes the first Luftwaffe victory over the RAF, and that distinction does not belong to Feldwebel Alfred Held of II./JG77 in a Bf109 operating out of Nordholz who shot down a Wellington.
Can you please give me information about Woick; a) what was his unit b) what type of aircraft was he flying c) where was he stationed and d) was this a confirmed claim?

Tony

[christian]

Hi Tony

Uffz. Woick was with his 2.Stafel/ZG 26 (a.) in Varel (c.). He fly a Me Bf 109 D-1 (b.) red 15+. He became the EKII and on the fin of his plane was a bar for his first victory. I have some photos from Uffz. Woick in Varel and a good photo with a sleepy Lt. Falke.

Greetings Christian

[tcolvin]

Christian, hi.

I am glad you have these pictures.
But Feldwebel Alfred Held of II./JG77 from Nordholz remains the first Luftwaffe pilot to shoot down an RAF aircraft.
Maybe Lt Falcke was the first Luftwaffe pilot to be shot down by the RAF, but history records that he was shot down by the Scheer's Flak.

All the best to you, and thanks again to everyone for their help. Tony

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

from your posts it becomes obvious, that the information I have had so far relating to the loss of Lt. Falke's Bf 109 on September 4th, 1939, was incomplete or rather incorrect with respect to the cause of the crash. The loss return that the information in JFV 2, p. 557 was based upon, did say nothing about "friendly fire".

In order to substantiate a correction of the information presented in JFV 2, I would kindly request you to provide me - off board - with copies of the KTB entry of the "Admiral Scheer " where the shooting down of a Bf 109 is mentioned and of other documents relevant to this loss. The KTB of the Navy High Command - KTB der SKL, Teil A - mentiones only the shooting down of a Ju 52 on September 5th, causing seven dead, whereas there is no hint at the incident of the day before.

Thank you in advance and

kind regards

Jochen Prien

[Franek Grabowski]

Sorry Tony, did not notice the title.
I am wondering if reported friendly fire Me 109 loss could be another aircraft rather than Falke's one. Indeed, only one Ju 52 is listed by GQ6 as shot down by Scheer and perhaps only incidents involving human losses were included?