19 Squadron RAF ( Mustang III ) losses 17th September 1944

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello to all my friends and those yet to become!
I am researching the combats between Fw 190 and Mustangs over Holland on the 17th September 1944 ( Yes...huge task...)
I found that 19 Squadron was somewhat involved in the particular dogfight I am researching, so would like some help this way:
A certain E.S.Hughes claimed a Fw 190 destroyed that day. I do REALLY NEED to know:
1- Time and location of his claim
2- IF 19 Squadron suffered any loss this day, while flying their duties. If yes, could someone inform me the names, aircraft involved, etc...? ( Some link? )

Glad in advance

Adriano

[Frank Olynyk]

From my files, F/Lt Eric Stanley Hughes claimed a FW-190 at 1700 hours, W of Emmerich. Other pilots made claims of 3 FW-190 damaged and one Me-109 damaged.

From Shores & Thomas, 2nd TAF, Vol 2, F/O R A B Slee was KIA in SR437. All claims and losses are at 1700, W of Emmerich.

Frank.

[M sIMPSON]

Hi there,
From Derek Palmer's book 'Fighter Squadron'.
Eight Mustangs took off from Grimbergen at 15.32 on an armed reconnaissance of the road east of Emmerich.After being relieved on patrol and while leaving the area they were informed of aircraft approaching from the east.Climbing to 12,000 feet,they saw three gaggles of Fw190s,totalling 50-60 aircraft.
Pilots on this patrol were;
F/L Hughes,
F/O Staples,
F/O Slee,
F/O Maynard,
F/O Webster,
F/O Scott,
W/O Beckett and one other unnamed pilot.
According to the account in this book, F/L Hughes saw the pilot bale out of the aircraft he attacked, F/O Staples claimed hits on two Fw190s, F/O Scott claimed hits on another Fw190,and either F/O Webster or F/O Maynard (it is ambiguous) claimed hits on an Me109.
Hope this is of use,
Regards,Mark.

[Steve49]

Adriano,

Caldwell's 'JG26 Volume 2' notes two Fw190's from II./JG26 as lost in combat with P51's during the day, but these are all noted as being lost in combat with the 4th FG (from which they claimed two P51's return).

A third Fw190 (flown Uffz Neumann 4./JG26 who was killed) is noted as being lost to 'Spitfires' in the Nijmegen area, in return I./JG26 claimed three Spitfires. Caldwell credits the Fw190 to Spitfires 602 Squadron, though they only claimed two damaged and suffered no losses in return.

A later clash saw II./JG26 claim three Mustangs for no loss. Only two Mustangs appear to have been lost to fighters in the area (one each from 19 and 65 Squadrons, but about one hour apart. A second 65 Squadron Mustang is reported by '2nd TAF' as being lost to flak).

As always with an aerial battle there appear to be many questions and few answers! If the identification of 'Spitfires' was mistaken, then 65 Squadron may have been involved in the clash with I./JG26 (claiming one Fw190, for the loss of one of their own), in which case the later clash by 19 Squadron may have actually achieved no success for the loss of one aircraft. However 602 Squadron may have acheived more success, then they realised....

Caldwell puts the location of Uffz Neumann's loss as Kleve; 2nd TAF gives the locations for the 19 Squadron claim as 'W Emmerich' (at 17.00), whilst the 65 Squadron claim is 'SE Arnhem' (at 16.00). All of these are relatively in the same area!

Hope this make some sense, good luck in your research,

Regards,

Steve

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi Frank, Simpson and Steve. Thank you for your kind answer and valuable help. Yes, like one of you put correctly, there are many clues that we had to find out before matching this kind of comparison losses versus claims ( to get an overall picture of an air combat that occurred some 63 years ago…).
You helped me in many ways. Firstly I was nearly certain that the Mustangs that had faced JG 6 that day were from the RAF.
From the information available I pictured 3 main combats that day ( as all of you had already figured out, of course ):
1- III/ JG 26 met and fought P-51 between 14:40-14:58h
2- II/JG 6 met Mustangs between 16:35-17:00h
3- I and II/ JG 26 fought P-51 and Spitfires between 17:51-18:08h

There is no doubt that III/ JG 26 led by Major Mietusch found and fought 361st FG. But the problems start to arise there: 361st only claimed one Bf 109 and had one loss! Did 4th FG joined the “fray” after their escort mission was finished ( did they made a sort of free hunt )? There were 3 claims submitted by 4th FG pilots ( Capt. Louis H. Norley; 1/Lt Ted E Lines – a 10 kills ace; 2/Lt Albert J Davis – all from 335th F.S. ). It is bizarre, but the actual report on the loss of Lt. Woodrow W. Glover of 335th FS mentions him being hit by Flak and crashing at 15:30hs. There is no match for his loss on Luftwaffe records – nearly one hour after the combat started at 14:40h…On the other hand, 4th FG lost one pilot, Lt. Clifford E Holske at 14:40h near Vardingholt, to the East of Borken/ Bocholt area - and the time matches the claims submitted by Leutnant Wilhelm Hoffmann of .8/ JG 26. So it is very probable that III/ JG 26 met 4th FG and 361st FG.

It is VERY PROBABLE also that several Groups of Mustangs fought III/ JG 26 that early afternoon. Do you know of any other claims submitted by 8th AF Fighter Groups?

By the way: I know that there was a difference between English and German time. But was this still being utilized here, on September 1944, when the vast majority of Fighter Squadrons were operating from airfields in liberated Europe ( France, Belgium )?

THE ONLY Combat that find a match on both sides is this that which involves JG 6 and 19 Squadron. Both reports mentions a combat around 17:00h.
Uffz. Heinberger from 6/JG 6 got a Mustang near Emmerich between 16:45-17:00h

Uffz. Känner from 7/JG 6 got another Mustang near Helmond – a town some 18km to the East of Eindhoven, between 16:35-45.

From those two claims, it seems that the three Staffelns of JG 6 were sent to three separate Areas of Patrol. JG 6 AS FAR AS I KNOW lost only the machine of Oblt. Werner Uhlig, Staffelkapitan of 5 Staffel. Strangely he crashed or was shot down near Koln ( Cologne – the big town on the Ruhr; which seems very very far away from the combat Area of Eindhoven – if this was the 5th Staffel patrol area that day or Emmerich, much more to the north ).

19 Squadron claimed one kill for one loss, which is far close to the losses and records of JG 6 than to those of JG 26.

Frank, do you or one of you have MORE information about Mustangs of 65 Squadron? How many aircraft were dispatched? How many claims and losses they submitted and suffered? Could someone figure out this for us? I tried to find on the net but was unsuccessful. I also did not find combat claims or losses on 602 Squadron records. But will keep going on my researches.

I found very strange the loss of Oblt Uhlig near Koln…it is very very far away. He could have being followed or wounded on an early action until he crashed…Will have to check out more precisely.

Glad to all of you and please excuse me for the delay in answering. I was obtaining some MAPS of Europe to check out ALL the claims and losses of JG 26, JG 6, 19 Squadron. It took me some days to get an overall picture of what happened and get the maps printed properly.

We will certainly keep in touch gentlemen. One more time I thank you for the valuable help and the kind attention in answering. Yours very friendly

Adriano

[kjetilk]

Hi Adriano,

19 sqdn ORB (form 540 and 541) and the personal combat reports from September 17 1944 are good sources for the info you seek.

Original documents are located in TNA in AIR27-254 and AIR50-10, and available as microfilm. Archives are far better sources than books if you are interested in minute details.

Please contact me if you are interested in copies of the documents, as the pdf files prepared were to large to be uploaded on the forum.

Regards,

Kjetil

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Hello to all my friends and those yet to become!
I am researching the combats between Fw 190 and Mustangs over Holland on the 17th September 1944 ( Yes...huge task...)
I found that 19 Squadron was somewhat involved in the particular dogfight I am researching, so would like some help this way:
A certain E.S.Hughes claimed a Fw 190 destroyed that day. I do REALLY NEED to know:
1- Time and location of his claim
2- IF 19 Squadron suffered any loss this day, while flying their duties. If yes, could someone inform me the names, aircraft involved, etc...? ( Some link? )

Glad in advance
Adriano

19 sq
8 a/c armed patrol from Grimbergen B-60
15.32 - 17.25/17.30 = 16.32 German time !!
F/O R.A Slee missing (KIA)
1 Fw 190 destroyed by F/L E.S Hughes

65 sq
8 a/c on Patrol from Grombergen B-60
14.25 - 16.30
F/L D.G Metzler missing (KIA)
F/O H.J Muir missing (KIA) hit by Flak

Slee & Metzler were shot down in combat with II./JG 6 I think!
II./JG 6 lost two Fw 190's and pilots in this combat!

Cheers
Karl Lusink
ARGA
www.arga-nl.nl

[kjetilk]

Just to add further details.

Extracted from the combat report (September 17th, 1944), No. 19 Squadron:

Time ut & down: 1532-1802. Place of attack: W.EMMERICH. Time of attack: 1700. Height of E/A on first sighting: 14,000 feet. Height of own A/C first sighting: 11,000 feet. Our casualties: 1 Mustang Cat. E. F/O R.A.D. Slee, (lost in combat, no information), 1 Mustang Cat. B.

Enemy Casulaties: 1 Fw 190 destr. F/Lt E.S. Hughes, 1 Me 109 dam. shared, F/O J.M. Maynard and F/O F.D. Webster, 1 Fw 190 Dam. shared, F/O J.A. Scott, W/O J.D. Beckett, 2 Fw 190 Dam. F/O J.E. Staples, DFM.

F/Lt Hughes reports: "I was leading 8 a/c of 19 sqdn and flying Jamjar 1. We had been relieved on patrol by 122 Squadron and were leaving the area on an armed recce of the road East of Emmerich when we were informed by Kenway that bandits were approaching from the East. We commenced to climb and at 12,000ft sighted 3 large gaggels of FW190's totalling 50/60 aircraft, flying on a course of approx 300 degs at 14,000ft. We were flying a course of 160 degs and the e/a appeared not to see us, so we made a full turn starboard and climed into the sun to attack the e/a.The e/a saw us an also turned to starboard. After both they and we had completed a 360 degs turn in this manner the e/a still had the advantage of height, and we finally levelled off for 3/4 seconds heding roughly west at about 15,000ft and waited for the 190's to attack. As the e/a closed their range to approx 6/800 yds we broke hard to starboard into them. Almost immediately a FW190 apperard right in front of me at very close range and I fired a short burst. I then lost sight of the 190 under my nose, but after continuing the turn I saw the 190 almost directely below me spinning down streaming white smoke and I saw the hood came off and the pilot bale out. I had to continue turning tightly as my No2 - F/O Maynard - was being attacked by 4/5 190's. F/Lt McNeil who was flying Jamjar 4 also saw my 190 spinning down and the hood came off. Immediately after my attack on the 190 I saw an ME109 creeping up between my No2 and myself. I saw my No2, F/O Maynard, firing at the 109 and subsequently saw a 109 spinning down, out of control. We finnaly succeeded in breaking off the attacks and returned to base. I claim 1 FW190 destroyed. cino Camera used. No Gyro gun-sight used."

The combat report also contains personal reports from F/O Staples, F/O Manyard and F/O Webster and partly F/O Scott (page 3 is missing).

I hope the info is useful,

Kjetil

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Kjetil and Karl,
You added a lot more to my general picture of the combats of 17th September! Kjetil very very interesting the Combat report and particularly this single Me 109 amongst a lot of Fw 190. As you have seen the actual combat report of 19 Squadron matches the HOUR of the combat reports of JG 6. I do not know how many JG 6 machines took off, if they joined forces with another Jagdgeschwader. What seems strange from the reports is that one claim was made East of Eindhoven and the other around Emmerich area. And, we do have the loss of Oberleutnant Werner Uhlig ( my main focus of research ) well to the east, somewhere near Koln ( Cologne ). It is very intriguing...because there is no other ( up to now ) known USAF claim around 17:00hs. So, perhaps, as another researcher like us put on an early reply, maybe JG 6 met 65 or 602 Squadron. I still am looking for 65 Squadron Mustang´s claims and losses, trying to find out some ORB for this Squadron. I only know Oblt Uhlig as a JG 6 loss. Do not know if this JG had more losses...but I am guessing correctly that they probably met 19 Squadron or 65 Squadron´s Mustangs.
I will be sharing all NEW information with you and the others that have helped me so far.
Thank you again for your kind contribution and HELP! I am really in debt...

Yours friendly as ever

Adriano

PS: Yes, Kjetil, if you could send me those PDF archives, I would be glad to have a careful look at
baumgartner_asv@yahoo.com.br

[harper]

Hi, F/L D.G Metzler 65 SQN. is my wife's Uncle. We would be very interested in any further information you may have on 65 SQN involvement in the action.
Anthony