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  #11  
Old 16th June 2013, 21:19
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is online now
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

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Originally Posted by Oberst View Post
Doubt that very much. Things like that to hide is easy to do, in fact, its still common place today.
Hide the loss of the aircraft and the crew??? Systematically?
It was a complot of commanders, engineer service, personnel branch, political officers (an independent channel of info) and osobists (2nd independent channel) of all levels?
One day some regiment lose his last aircraft but continue to report on the evening that 20-30 aircrafts are ready for action next morning?

Let's take in to account, that bulk of everyday papers, monthly reports and so on survived the war and available now. And available for the multiple cross-checking. In contrast with Luftwaffe documents, whose ~96 per cents of documents were destroyed.
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  #12  
Old 17th June 2013, 00:07
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Nick, I don't think that Helmut Lipfert was just hunting "weather" planes for his score. He seems to have been pretty good at "dogfighting". Take 02Dec43 he claimed at 06:39 a Yak-1, 06:48 a LaGG-3 and 06:55 another LaGG-3. Losses suffered by the VVS ChF were three LaGG-3 of the 25 IAP ChF (Ml.Lt. Viktor Ivanovich Verishchenko (KIA), Ml.Lt. Ivan Grigor'evich Gordievskiy (KIA), Ml.Lt. Dmitriy Andreevich Kusenko (KIA) all in air combat).
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  #13  
Old 17th June 2013, 01:35
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Hi Mikhail,

I take your point. I probably chose terms that were too general when trying to express the opinion that there seem to be quite a few aircraft carrying out that mission when you look at the altitudes and locations of many of Rall's victories.

Nick
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Old 17th June 2013, 09:39
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Hi Guys

Whatever I say about Hartmann don't believe the "only 80" conclusion, as we do not no much about his 1945 claims, it's impossible to reach a conclusion about these. Also his earlier ones seem sound! Hartmann though was a big daily claims merchant which is usually a pretty good indicator of overclaiming.......but not always.

Johannes
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Old 19th June 2013, 02:21
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

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Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Nick, I don't think that Helmut Lipfert was just hunting "weather" planes for his score. He seems to have been pretty good at "dogfighting". Take 02Dec43 he claimed at 06:39 a Yak-1, 06:48 a LaGG-3 and 06:55 another LaGG-3. Losses suffered by the VVS ChF were three LaGG-3 of the 25 IAP ChF (Ml.Lt. Viktor Ivanovich Verishchenko (KIA), Ml.Lt. Ivan Grigor'evich Gordievskiy (KIA), Ml.Lt. Dmitriy Andreevich Kusenko (KIA) all in air combat).
... also, I believe that it was not without risk to shoot down a Pe-2 with is good defensive weapons when it can see you coming from miles at these high altitudes...
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  #16  
Old 20th June 2013, 02:23
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Question of J. Prien on Rall in JFV 9/II

Yogy,

I'll wear that one, mate. I think you're 100% correct with that statement and it's borne out by the fact that a lot of the Luftwaffe's top-scorers victory lists ARE made up of single-seat types. Christer Bergstroem pointed that out a few years back in his Black Cross + Red Star series and I have always agreed with him.
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