Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 4th May 2006, 23:27
Dick Powers Dick Powers is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 78
Dick Powers
Finnish-marked British planes?

I an reading “Rising ’44 The Battle for Warsaw” by Norman Davies. All reviews I have seen say it is the best coverage of the Warsaw uprising.

I the second chapter, the author provides an overview of the Allied Coalition and how Poland fit in to the coalition.

When talking about the Russo-Finnish war, Davies claims that ...
“They [British and French] were considering an assault on Norway, which would have given them the dual benefit of access to Finland and control of Sweden’s valuable ore exports. British planes painted with Finnish markings were already standing by on airfields near London when the Finns decided to cut their losses on 12 March 1940 and make peace.”

He doesn’t specify what the ‘planes’ were supposed to do. Chapter notes don’t provide his source for the statement. British planes outside London in Finnish markings ( a swastika) in March 1940? This sounds suspicious to me. Am I missing something or does this sound like something from The History Channel? Can anyone here shed light on this supposed expedition and just what the planes were supposed to do?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 5th May 2006, 00:00
atckyrre atckyrre is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sola, Norway
Posts: 191
atckyrre is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

In general the British aircraft like Lysander, Hurricane and Blenheim when being transfered to Finland flew through neutral Norway and therefore they carried overpainted insignia. White circles in other words.

I doubt that the Brits were contemplating some covert operation so I suspect these must have been potential supplies for the Finns fighting against the Germans?
I doubt that fresh aircraft were carrying the Hakaristi when prepared in the UK.

Thenagain I could be wrong of course.

Kyrre
__________________
Kyrre Ingebrethsen
Sola, Norway.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th May 2006, 09:42
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 519
Kari Lumppio is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Hi!

Finland was able to buy from UK (and received during Winter War) two batches of Blenheims (Mk I and Mk IV), Gladiators, Lysanders and Hurricanes. IIRC and AFAIK more Hurricanes and Blenheim were to follow. A batch of Blackburn Rocs were to start towards Finland the day the war was ended, but IIRC they were at Scotland then.

Those planes which were delivered by flying were painted in Finnish markings already in UK. Military insignias were painted over with temporary paint for overflight of Norway and Sweden.

My guess is that the planes in question were part of "normal" deliveries to Finland which eventually were cancelled.


The story goes that in Autumn 1941 when Soviets received Hurricanes in crates at Murmansk Harbour some came with Finnish swastika insignias...


Regards,

Kari
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 5th May 2006, 16:47
Dick Powers Dick Powers is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 78
Dick Powers
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Thanks. Now that makes sense. The author technically is correct, but he sems to be hinting at (but not explaining) a larger participation.

Thanks for your information.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 5th May 2006, 20:25
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 519
Kari Lumppio is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Hello!

Both UK and France were preparing to send largish military forces to Finland -infantry and associated things plus also airforce units. For that they would have needed (politically) Finland to ask for such aid. Finnish governement reasoned that the Allied help would arrive too late - by mid-March the Front was on the brink of total collapse - and eventually it was decided to sue for peace instead of asking Allied help.

BTW Asking and accepting the Allied help would have moved Soviet Union to the German side against the Allied. One of the great "What-if"s of WW2 if you ask from me.

When reading about British and French aid for Norwegians for their battle against German invasion Spring 1940 one cannot help thinking that the Allied forces perhaps were the very same which were intended to be sent to Finland (and Northern Sweden & Norway). I suppose the expeditionary forces would have fought under their own (British and French) markings even if sent to Finland instead of Norway.

My two cents,
Kari
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 5th May 2006, 20:55
Dick Powers Dick Powers is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 78
Dick Powers
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

"Rising 44.." calims that the Britain asked Poland to include a brigade of 5,000 troops along with British and French trooops.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 5th May 2006, 22:44
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Hi guys

I have seen - as I expect many others have - a photo of a Finnish Blenheim marked with the swastika on a white background IIRC. Somewhere I have a list of the British pilots who ferried the first six (?) Blenheims to Finland, should anyone be interested.

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 5th May 2006, 23:07
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Espoo, Finland
Posts: 519
Kari Lumppio is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Hello!

For what it is worth.

Finland was as far as I know the first foreign customer for Blenheim. This was already couple of years before the war(s).

The first batch was manufactured in Finland. During Winter War two batches were bought from UK. During 1941-1944 additional Blenheim batches were built in Finland, some using partial Yugoslavian Ikarus-made assemblies bought from Germany.

Cheers,
Kari
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 6th May 2006, 13:01
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 825
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Hurricanes, Poland, Finalnd, Norway

There are some wrong data in these information about Rising 44 and Polish brigade.
Poland had also ordered in GB a batch of 10 or 11 Hurricanes I. GB had agreed to supply them and 1-st was even send to Poland. He never come and was only on the ship board when the war broken.
After the beginning the war all futher shipment to Poland were conceled. There is such information that bigger part of fromer ordered by Poland Hurricanes had been send instead to Finland (there is 8 HCs serials to be supplyed to Poland and the same serials are on the planes, which were at last delivered to Finland in March 1940. There was also such mythology that on some Hurricanes were pained Polish insignia like white and red chassboard and Polish inscriptions on the cocpit's clocks. This last is rather not possible - fantazy.

Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich.
British and French goverment, despite miliatry support to Finalnd, had ideas to send land forces to support Finland on land in this war. Both government wanted to not be directly involved in combat with Russian. So in Jan 1940 was invented specific political solution.
There should be send to Finalnd insted britihs and French Polish Miliatry Corps and also Navy, which would particpated in combats with Russian red invaders (who aslo invaded Poland on 17 IX 1939 as German's friends - IV Partitions of Poland). Polish Navy had to fight with Russian navy around Petsamo. Our navy had to weak forces and idea was abolished.
Polish governmen on the exile (gen. Sikorski) twice discuted a question of miliatry support to Finland in Jan 1940. Polish goverment had agreed to creat land brigade only then when Poles wuold be used in allied expeditions military forces - not as a single one. Polish goverment had decied to creat such mountain brigade on 24 Jan 1940. Brigade was organised in France according French military schemes. His commander was płk dypl. Z. Bohusz-Szyszko (later gen. brigade.). In February 1940 had beed finnished full her organisation. In the meantime Finland had signed peace agreemant with Russian (the war was over on 13 III 1940). Anyway the full training program Poolish solderis in SBSP was still conducted. Soldiers would be used (according earlier plans) in war in the mountain and winter areas of northern Finland. In IV 1940 German had invaded Denmark and Norway. The idea of used Polish soldiers from Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich was activated by British and French goverment.
This brigade was send and used in Norway. SBSP was despached there on 24 IV 1940 from Brest. Brigade had 4778 soldiers and they had fought in Narvik in May 1940. Polish soldiers were evacuated from Norway between 2-7 VI 1940, coming back to France.
In spite of land forces also Polish Navy (3 destroyers - ORP Błyskawica, ORP Grom, ORP Burza + one sumbmarine ORP Orzeł) took part in comabt in Norway campaigne. ORP Orzeł did sunk German transport ship "Rio de janeiro" with German soldiers sailed to Norway exactly on the begining of this war (8 IV 1940 - aboy 100 Germans KIA, MIA).
Luftwaffe did sunk our destroyer - ORP Grom - on 4 V 1940 (there were killed 1 officer and 58 sailors), the rest was rescuted by Royal Navy (17 officers and 137 sailors).

During war around Narwik, which was at last captured with the great support of Polish soldiers, our brigade did lost 2 offciers and 95 soldiers KIA and 189 soldiers WIA + 28 MIA. Poles created substantial and important part of allied expenditionary forces, which at first were planed to use in Finland and soon were used in Norway battle.

There was also idea of used Polish Air Forces to support Finland in the Winter War. It was so called Polish - "Finland Squadron" - founded in Bron near Lyon, which was exactly planed to use there in Finalnd against Russian.
The name was soon changed into I/145 Warsaw Figher Squadron. His pilots later fought over France in Caudron Cyclone C.714 in May 1940, but his orgins was Finalad Winter war.
At last but not least during Winter War a few Poles took part in this war in Finland war. Quite more were also mobilised by Soviets and also fought in the ranks of invaders forces.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzyński

PS
Ideas of swastika on Hurricanes supplied to Finalnd is not confirmed and in fact has nothing with the true. Russian loved to creat some mythology which is not support by any proofs also in this case - pure fantasy.
An author of Hawker Hurricane in Foreign Service in WW II (Belgian, Finalnd, Rumanian, Yugoslavina, German, Italian and Soviet Union users)
and Ju 87 in Foreign Service
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15th May 2006, 23:57
jednastka jednastka is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 62
jednastka is on a distinguished road
Re: Finnish-marked British planes?

Mirek

Thank you for your explanation of this passage in Davies' book. I am very interested in the combination of the Warsaw Uprising with the Polish pilots at Bron-Lyon, since my family was directly involved.

My Grandfather, Kazimierz Benz, was commandant at Bron-Lyon, While both my mother and father fought with the AK in the uprising. Please contact me off-board, since I would like to know if you have more information, especially about my grandfather.

vbenz@cruzinternet.com

Victor
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 799 27th March 2022 23:12
Did British planes bomb Pärnu, Estonia Sept. 23, 1944? Kari Lumppio Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 5th September 2005 22:01
Israeli Ezer Weizman Nonny Allied and Soviet Air Forces 6 28th April 2005 03:34
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 12th March 2005 23:33
British and Commonwealth (or other allies) ratios Ruy Horta Allied and Soviet Air Forces 25 25th February 2005 13:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net