Jewish airmen in WWII

[Franek Grabowski]

Finally back home.

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

You really believe that without the front-line troops of the Soviet Army, Hitler would never have started the war?

Yes, it is obvious from his writings and speaches that he would not ever start anything like that being not secured on one front.

I can only presume that you are referring to the Nazi-Soviet pact and the joint invasion of Poland, but that only draws a specific line in history.

It is not a specific line in history but a strict co-operation between Germany and the SU that lasted for more than a year, and which also affected British defensive potential - see CBAF strikes for example.

To suggest that Hitler had not already started warfare in Europe ignores his actions in Austria and Czechoslovakia, or his plans for later, elsewhere.

Those operations cannot be considered warfare, since Hitler secured peace with the West by diplomatic means. Indeed aggressive movement but not leading to a war.

Had Poland agreed to the passage of Soviet troops, the Munich agreement and the betrayal of Czechoslovakia may never have happened.

Had Poland agreed to the passage of Soviet troops, they would not left Poland. I cannot understand, how people in the West can be so ignorant, not to understand so simple Russian tricks!

Perhaps then Hitler's ambitions could have been curbed, but after that failure the war was inevitable. It was the failure of the "West" here that encouraged Stalin to come to his agreement with the Nazis, which no one on any side expected to last.

Munich was in 1938 but the SU was considered a threat for the world peace much earlier. Actually it was the country expected to start the second world war.

[G. Warrener]

Here's another link

http://www.drk.de/generalsekretariat/stauffenberg.htm

;-) Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Oh, yes! Old poor Melitta! nonetheless I am wondering how many of those Jews are made up. I am fresh after a talk to a family of a Polish few, who was listed a Jew. They were much surprised to hear that their family is considered Jewish!

[G. Warrener]

They were much surprised to hear that their family is considered Jewish!

Hello Frantek

Being a Jew is passed down the female lineage. If there was a Jewish woman in the ancestry - then from a Jewish viewpoint - they are 'Jews' even if they do not know it.

And I suspect that many neither know nor care to know that.


Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

A Jew is not going to a church every sunday.

[G. Warrener]

Hello

I omitted to say that there should be some continuity in the female lineage - a lady who produced only sons - stops the line.

And naturally Jews differentiate between practising & non-practising Jews.

Lilly Litvak e.g. a typical Jewish Lithuanian surname - but was she aware of it??

As for going to Church on Sunday - well what a silly suggestion !

Still.....
Churches are the houses of worship for a errant Jewish sect, whose central figure never denied his origins - even if his claims are accepted / or denied.

It's all a question of mindset, faith, laws perceived and obeyed, or rituals followed - but it's no excuse for murder.

Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Hello

Originally Posted by G. Warrener

I omitted to say that there should be some continuity in the female lineage - a lady who produced only sons - stops the line.

Oh, the boys are Jewish but they cannot reproduce Jewes. They are the end of the line.

And naturally Jews differentiate between practising & non-practising Jews.

This is not that clear. A rather complicated issue, especially as there is nobody in kind of Pope there, someone who makes a general interpretation of holly books.

Lilly Litvak e.g. a typical Jewish Lithuanian surname - but was she aware of it??

She was Lidya Litvyak - I am not sure if Litvyak and Litvak is the same name but if it was Jewish, I am certain she was awared of it. By the way, Litvak is used as a synonymous of a Russian Jew.

As for going to Church on Sunday - well what a silly suggestion !

Why, I do not see religious Jewes there?

Still.....
Churches are the houses of worship for a errant Jewish sect, whose central figure never denied his origins - even if his claims are accepted / or denied.

You are simplifying the whole picture.

It's all a question of mindset, faith, laws perceived and obeyed, or rituals followed - but it's no excuse for murder.

I have not murdered anybody! At least as yet!

[G. Warrener]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Hello
Dobry wieczor pan



Oh, the boys are Jewish but they cannot reproduce Jews. They are the end of the line.

Boys have to be circumsized - matrilineal descent is a fundamental of Judaism, and remained unquestioned for 3,100 years until the rise of the Jewish Reform movement in the late 18th century.
</B>
The source for matrilineal descent is from the Bible itself, where it discusses the prohibition against marrying out of the Faith. The Bible says that you may not give over your child to a non-Jewish spouse as he may turn your son away from you.

The bible, in describing the grandson as “your son” implies that he is Jewish, whereas the non-Jewish child-in-law is depicted as a male. This is understood to mean that the religion goes after the mother.


This is not that clear. A rather complicated issue, especially as there is nobody in kind of Pope there, someone who makes a general interpretation of holy books.

Benedetto is well aware of how & where his employment originates.
RABBIS spend their lives interpreting. The devout listen & learn from rabbis



She was Lidya Litvyak - I am not sure if Litvyak and Litvak is the same name but if it was Jewish, I am certain she was awared of it. By the way, Litvak is used as a synonymous of a Russian Jew.

You are more precise than I am Francis
I am not too sure if Soviet 1930s society permitted obedience to Jewish religious practice. For me she is Jewish only if she was aware of her faith - and followed it. I have similar 'doubts' about Stanford-Tuck, as I have never found reference to him being a practising Jew ?
As for Melitta........

I am not interested in Soviet/Eastern European prejudices. I am interested in the victims of such prejudices. I find certain chapters in First Kill sad. But as with S. Skalski in his later years - I will not judge - their lives were not my life and as pilots, both were exceptionally skilled, brave and served the allied cause superbly. Their personal views may have been expressed - but that was their right of speech. I am neither a Polish Catholic nor a Polish Jew.



Why, I do not see religious Jews there?

Correct - a "Church" is to a Jew a buiding from which only trouble and strife can be expected - maybe this will change - but as long as those who go into churches deny the origins of their beliefs - I (personally) suspect that caution is the better part of valour for those who choose to remain outside, and true to the original source



You are simplifying the whole picture.
Thank you



I have not murdered anybody! At least as yet!

lucky for you...I encourage your restraint. Repentance is better than salvation.....

TTFN
Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Dobry wieczór

Boys have to be circumsized - matrilineal descent is a fundamental of Judaism, and remained unquestioned for 3,100 years until the rise of the Jewish Reform movement in the late 18th century.
</B>
The source for matrilineal descent is from the Bible itself, where it discusses the prohibition against marrying out of the Faith. The Bible says that you may not give over your child to a non-Jewish spouse as he may turn your son away from you.

I would say the reason is much simplier. Jews were like Gypsies in modern times, nomads travelling through the middle east. In such conditions, a pregnant woman is always a problem and you can imagine what the problem is when the child is not 'our'. Making religious argument that the child should be considered 'our' because it is of 'our' mother allows to resolve such issues and rise the children.

The bible, in describing the grandson as “your son” implies that he is Jewish, whereas the non-Jewish child-in-law is depicted as a male. This is understood to mean that the religion goes after the mother.

I mean the child of a Jewish mother is always a Jew not depending on sex.

Benedetto is well aware of how & where his employment originates.
RABBIS spend their lives interpreting. The devout listen & learn from rabbis

I mean there is no oberrabbi, who is supervising other rabbis. So every rabbi can interpret the bible in any way he considers correct. This may lead to so many complicated interpretations that are quite contradictory.

You are more precise than I am Francis

Oh, it was just discussed here.

I am not too sure if Soviet 1930s society permitted obedience to Jewish religious practice. For me she is Jewish only if she was aware of her faith - and followed it. I have similar 'doubts' about Stanford-Tuck, as I have never found reference to him being a practising Jew ?

Litvyak - if it is a Jewish name (I do not know Russian that good) then she must have been awared of it, no doubt. If she was religious, that is another matter. I would like to avoid discussion if Jewishness is nationality or religion, let's leave it to rabbis.
RST, well, I am curious as well. As I noted previously, research on the Polish airmen of Jewish descent/religion is sloppy to say the least. I have to receive some sort of document listing the Polish airmen of Jewish religion but I am still waiting for it.

As for Melitta........

Perhaps it is a bogus story?

I am not interested in Soviet/Eastern European prejudices. I am interested in the victims of such prejudices. I find certain chapters in First Kill sad. But as with S. Skalski in his later years - I will not judge - their lives were not my life and as pilots, both were exceptionally skilled, brave and served the allied cause superbly. Their personal views may have been expressed - but that was their right of speech. I am neither a Polish Catholic nor a Polish Jew.

Beware, a victim may be a monster! Or should we consider Roehm or Berya victims?
Concerning views of Gnyś, Skalski or anybody else, such a discussion without the knowledge of rather complicated ethnical/religious situation is senseless. Also, I have noted that especially Anglosaxons have problems with understanding such issues, for example that nationality is not linked to place of living or citizenship.

Correct - a "Church" is to a Jew a buiding from which only trouble and strife can be expected - maybe this will change - but as long as those who go into churches deny the origins of their beliefs - I (personally) suspect that caution is the better part of valour for those who choose to remain outside, and true to the original source

I cannot say anything about English or German churches but I do not see anything like that here in Poland. I would say it is the other side which increases the conflict, and it is mostly 'imported' people.

lucky for you...I encourage your restraint. Repentance is better than salvation.....

[G. Warrener]

Hi Franek

"Litvyak - if it is a Jewish name "

Litvak is the current Jewish word for Lithuania - the country - I do not know the origin - though it is likely from Yiddish & not Hebrew

In much English literature about the Soviet aviatrix it is spelled thus, without the 'y'

I cannot read Russian - I suppose that translating Russían into Polish or English etc - can mean inserting or omitting letters to enable a more correct 'sound'

Graham