Hurricane R4185

[AndyMa]

The loss of 151 Sqn Hurricane R4185 (Sgt Winstanley) is a little confusing.

AIR81/3299 says 16/9/40
The AM78 also says 16/9/40
The 151 Sqn Summary of Events (AIR 27/1018/31) records the incident as 17/9/40
The 151 Sqn Records of Events (AIR 27/1018/32) seems to indicates 16/9/40, but at some stage someone has pencilled-in "17/9/40?" against some of the blocks of entries. This is not as strange as it sounds, as the entries for the period 2300 hrs 15/9/40 to 2300 hrs 16/9/40 jump all over the place timewise. There are no apparent entries for 17/9/40 except for a small block of four flights which have clearly been added afterwards.
The next entry is for 2300 hrs 17/9/40 (17 has been written over 16) to 2300 hrs 18/9/40.
It seems that whoever was compiling this document got themselves a bit confused over dates!

Can anyone offer anything else that might help to solve this? Winstanley crashed at 1800 while chasing a He111. The squadron was flying from RAF Digby at the time.

[Peter Cook]

The likely reason for some sources locating this incident on 16 September is an error in the orignal RAF Casualty Report, AIR 81/3299 in the National Archives, which states:

Sergeant W A Winstanley: injured; aircraft accident, Biscathorpe, Hurricane R4185, 151 Squadron, 16 September 1940.

However, all of the major sources locate it as taking place on 17 September:

Mason - 1969 - Battle Over Britain - p. 323
151 Sqn. - Digby - Hurricane R4185
Sgt. J. Winstanley - Combat - A18.00 hrs. - Cat. 3 Destroyed
Pilot flew into high ground during combat with He 111; pilot injured.

Ramsey/Cornwell - 1980 - BoB Then and Now - p. 458
151 Squadron, Digby - Hurricane R4185
Flew into the ground during pursuit of He 111 through low cloud 5.30 p.m. Sergeant J. Winstanley injured admitted to hospital. Aircraft a write-off.

Franks - 1997 - RAF Fighter Command Losses: 1939-41- p. 84
151 Sqn - Hurricane I R4185
Sgt J Winstanley - Injured
Patrol. Hit the ground chasing He 111 through low cloud, 1730. A/c crashed at Biscathorpe, Lines.

Simon Parry's Battle of Britain Combat Archive, Volume 14 p. 666, has a slightly longer version, also on the 17th, and Wynn's biography of Winstanley in Men of the Battle of Britain also dates it to the 17th.

I hope that this helps,

Peter

[AndyMa]

Peter,
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am still open-minded about the date. I suspect it will never be resolved beyond doubt.
Andy

[Chris Goss]

Cas Card says 16 Sep 40

[AndyMa]

Chris,
Thanks, so that's a lot of primary sources saying 16 September.
Andy

[Chris Goss]

Also on Cas Card:

590695 Sgt John Winstanley, Pilot, Hurricane R4185, 151 Sqn Fighter Cmd. Fly. Acc. 18.00 hrs, 16/9/40, nr. Biscothorpe. Slightly injured. Stennigot House Hosp.

[gedburke3]

Dear all,
Roddick Smiths logbook entry confirms that this event occured on the 16th September.
Smith was flying hurricane 'M' 7432.
His entry for the 16th adds the following:-
10/10 cloud interception. He111 seen - went into cloud too quickly. Winstanley crashed. Orbit base - possible bandits.

Smith flew 4185 on September 7th and has marked it as 'B' in his logbook.

Gerry

[AndyMa]

Gerry,
Excellent, I think you have finally nailed this one.
I have the greatest respect for the earlier researchers, because it is was much more difficult and time-consuming in those days. But this perhaps shows again the danger of assuming that because they all said one date, they must be right. Maybe they just copied each other, or came to the same (incorrect) assumption.
Andy