Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15th December 2018, 13:24
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 327
Luc Vervoort is an unknown quantity at this point
RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Hi,

The Bf110C-7 w/nr.3607 of NJG1 crashed at Gruitrode (Belgium) during the night 5-6/07/1941 and is reported to have been shot down by a gunner of a RAF bomber.

According to ‘ Bomber Command War Diaries ‘ a total of 208 sorties were flown during that night :
65 Wellington and 29 Whitleys to Münster
39 Hampdens to Osnabrück
33 Wellingtons to Bielefeld
13 Halifaxes and 3 Stirlings to Magdeburg
14 Wellingtons to Rotterdam
7 Hampdens – minelaying in the Frisians
5 O.T.U. sorties

Are any additional details known about this victory s.a. name of the gunner, RAF Squadron, type of aircraft ?

Many thanks and best regards

Luc
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15th December 2018, 18:47
David Sumerauer David Sumerauer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 37
David Sumerauer
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Dear Luc,

two options from 311 squadron.
Wellingtons R1532 (F/Sgt Bernat J.) and R1451 (F/Sgt Schor K.) both heavily damaged by night figters, claiming their adversaries as probably destroyed (gunners L. Kadlec - injured, and J. Benes).

Best.

David
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th December 2018, 19:12
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 327
Luc Vervoort is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Dear David,

Thanks for this very interesting info, which is a very good starting point for further investigation !

Best regards from belgium

Luc
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16th December 2018, 14:27
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 327
Luc Vervoort is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Hi,
Checked the orb’s of almost all possible RAF units concerned.

The following units didn’t have any operational sorties that night :
12, 40, 44, 50, 51, 77, 97, 102, 104, 106, 115, 138, 142, 214, 218, 304, 305, 405, 408 and 455 Squadron.

5 O.T.U. sorties
I don’t have the orb’s of these units, but it is doubtfull that they were envolved in any fighting with Luftwaffe planes.

7 Hampden – minelaying in the Frisians
The aircraft were from 49, 61 and 83 Squadron, but no remarks about any contact with Luftwaffe planes is mentioned in the orb’s.

39 Hampden to Osnabrück
The orb of 144 Squadron (AIR 27/981) mentions for AD905 :
At 0232 hours we observed a flarepath on our starboard side near a heavy searchlight barrage. An enemy aircraft caught in a barrage fired a two-starred recognition cartridge (Red changing to white). In take advantage of this we glided towards the flare-path and released our bombs at 0235 hours. The bursts were seen to straddle the flare-path. The flare-path was not extinguished until after the bombs had been dropped. We afterwards pinpointed this as Plantlunne aerodrome just south of Lingen.
No information regarding contact with Luftwaffe planes is mentioned in the orb’s of 49, 61 and 83 Squadrons.

33 Wellington to Bielefeld
The partly partwritten orb of 301 Squadron (AIR 27/1660) mentions :
One aircraft was attacked by E/A but continued w.all remainder. Succesfully attacked target …(2 words unreadable for me) to base.
(The Form 541 doesn’t mention any additional details, sa the serial of the plane in question.)
No information regarding contact with Luftwaffe planes is mentioned in the orb’s of 103,150 and 300 Squadrons.

13 Halifax and 3 Stirling to Magdeburg
The orb of 35 Squadron (AIR 27/379) mentions :
L9524 : Enemy fighters were very active, and red flares put up to give position, but was not intercepted and returned to Base at time stated.
L9495 : Intercepted by enemy fighter over Zuiderzee; all rear guns jammed but pilot carried out succesful evasive action and shock-off the enemy. Landed safely at Base at time stated.
L9511 : One enemy fighter was seen, but made no attack. Returned safely to base, landing at time stated.
No information regarding contact with Luftwaffe planes is mentioned in the orb’s of 7 and 76 Squadrons.

14 Wellington To Rotterdam
The partly partwritten orb of 301 Squadron (AIR 27/1660) mentions :
One aircraft was attacked by E/A but continued w.all remainder. Succesfully attacked target …(2 words unreadable for me) to base.
(The Form 541 doesn’t mention any additional details, sa the serial of the plane in question. – see also : 33 Wellington to Bielefeld)
No information regarding contact with Luftwaffe planes is mentioned in the orb’s of 99, 101, 103 and 150 Squadrons. (The 2 aircraft of 103 Squadron had Amsterdam as target and 3 of 150 Squadron Boulogne).

65 Wellington and 29 Whitley to Munster
The orb of 10 Squadron (AIR 27/142) mentions :
Z6669 : No flak was encountered but at 0125 hrs, at 8,000 ft over the target an ME 110 passed astern on the port side. Also at 0248 hrs, another ME 110 passed astern 100 yds. Above. In neither of these cased did the enemy aircraft see our aircraft.
Z6794 : At 0135 hrs, at 11,000 ft, a twin engined enemy aircraft was sighted 300 yds. ahead, rising from underneath our aircraft. The front gunner fired two bursts but the enemy aircraft did not appear to have seen the Whitley and it disappeared.
Z6588 : At 0140 hrs, at 12,000ft. a twin engined enemy aircraft appeared from above from starboard and passed right underneath the tail of the Whitley. The captain took prompt and effective evasive action – making a steep diving turn to starboard – engines full out – reaching an I.A.S. of 250 m.p.h.. The enemy aircraft was not seen again. The rear gunner of this aircraft reported seeing an explosion in mid-air at 0220 hrs, and seeing pieces falling to the ground.
Z6627 : At 0100 hrs, at 12,000 ft.north west of Rheine, a burst of tracer was seen to port and an aircraft was seen to go down in flames.
Z6624 : At 0058 hrs, at 11,000 ft. the rear gunner saw an engagement between two aircraft near some searchlights, one aircraft (not being held by searchlights) was seen to go down on fire.
Z6672 : At 0110 hrs, at 10,000 ft, a ME 110 with red and green wing tip lights came in astern to 300 yds. range, lights were switched off, our aircraft took evasive action and lost the enemy. At 0140 hrs. At 9,500 ft. over the Zuyder Zee two more enemy aircraft were sighted but no action developed.
Z6564 : This crew also report seeing an aircraft go down on fire.
(Remark: the serial of these planes are difficult to read in my copy of the orb.)

The orb of 75 Squadron (AIR 27/645) mentions :
One of our aircraft was attacked by a Me.109 which dived away after out rear gunner had fired two bursts.
R1163: P/O.Scott reports one Me.109 closed in to 150 yards. Rear gunner fired two bursts and the 109 dived away. Two others seen, but no attacks.

The orb of 78 Squadron (AIR 27/660) mentions :
Z6555 : The aircraft was held in searchlights and attacked by enemy aircraft which hit the port wing. The rear gunner fired a short burst, enemy aircraft turned to port and disappeared. Enemy aircraft made a second attack and as it turned away the rear gunner followed it with a long burst. It is not known whether it was destroyed.
The reargunner was Sgt.Byrne.

The orb of 311 Squadron (AIR 27/1686) mentions :
During the return journey, a/c 1451, Captained by F/Sgt.Schor, had a short encounter with an enmy aircraft and an exchange of fire was made. The enemy disappeared but returned shortly afterwards and resumed the attack. He was engaged by the rear-gunner, Sgt.Kadlec, who claims to have inflicted damage upon it. During the combat, Sgt.Kadlec was badly wounded in the leg and has since had to have the limb amputated. Despite the fact that the aircraft was hit by enemy flak which had made a large hole in the starboard wing and flap, the captain made a safe landing with a punctured tyre.
An enemy aircraft also attacked the machine captained by F/Sgt.Bernat and set fire to the fabric of the port centre section wing, top and bottom, with the second pilot, Sgt.Linka, flying the aircraft and taking avoiding action. F/Sgt.Hernat and F/Sgt. Haering fought the fire which had now spread to a large portion of the fabric of the fuselage, cabin curtains, bed and heating pipes. F/Sgt. Hernat resumed control of the machine while P/O Kula, F/Sgt. Haering and Sgt.Linka succeeded in extinguising the fire only to discover that the rear-turret had been hit causing oil leakage. However, the rear-gunner manipulated his turret by hand and gave the enemy several bursts which caused him to break off the engagement. As the hydraulic systen had been hit putting the flaps and wheels out of action, a belly landing was made at Wretham and other than burns, the crew were all safe and unhurt.
1451 P : A short combat took place during the aircraft return. A short exchange of machine-gun fire was made. A few minutes later the a/c was again attacked and the R/G was wounded. Our R/G claims to have damaged attacking aircraft, A/C hit by enemy flak, damaged starboard undercarriage and punctured petrol-tank.
The reargunner of this aircraft (R1451) was Sgt.Kadlec.
1532 R : A/C attacked by unseen fighter. Incendiary bullets set fire to the under-side of the port-wing, fabric and cabin-curtains. Fire was extinguished Navigator and W/T operator. Two further attacks were made, during which the rear-turret was hit, causing oil-leakages, necessitating the turret being manipulated by hand. R/G claims e/a hit and was last seen diving away.
The reargunner of this aircraft (R1532) was Sgt. Benes.

Can we conclude that one of these rear-gunners of a Wellington, Sgt.Kadlec of 311 Squadron - R1451 or Sgt.Benes of 311 Squadron – R1532 or Sgt.Byrne of 78 Squadron - Z6555, shot down the aircraft ?

Best regards

Luc
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16th December 2018, 14:35
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,398
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Without a German report or time, all that it can be is assumed
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16th December 2018, 16:48
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 327
Luc Vervoort is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Chris,


Thanks for your reply, you’re correct to mention that it can only be assumed.


The hours of take off and landing of the 3 Wellingtons are :
Z6555 t/o 22h38 landed 05h14
R1451 t/o 23h18 landed 03h30
R1532 t/o 23h22 landed 04h32


Note : is it possible that R1451 landed an hour earlier than R1532, while the difference at the take off was only 4 minutes ? (All other planes of 311 Squadron also landed after 04h00.)


In ‘ Deutsche Nachtjagd – Personalverluste in Ausbildung und Einsatz – fliegendes Personal -, by Michael Balss (1.Auflage 1997) is mentioned as time 03h00.


Do these times need some kind of conversion ? Was the British time zone equal to the German one during July 1941 ?


Unfortunately I don’t have the NVM for the crash of the Bf110. Perhaps a NJG specialist can help ?


Many thanks in advance and best regards


Luc
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16th December 2018, 17:24
David Sumerauer David Sumerauer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 37
David Sumerauer
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Luc,
according to J. Rajlich chronicles on Czechs in RAF (part 7 - ISBN 80-86808-12-2) Wellington R1451 KX-P was hit at 02.28 in vicinity of Alkmaar, Netherlands and landed at East Wretham at 3.30. There is a description of incident in the book,. Pilot clearly states that he was flying on maximal power to get grievously wounded gunner home alive, landing around 45 minutes ahead of others.
F/Sgt Bernat crew battle took place at 3.30 around Netherlands coast.

Kind Regards

David
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27th December 2018, 00:56
Marcel Hogenhuis's Avatar
Marcel Hogenhuis Marcel Hogenhuis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Venlo - the Netherlands
Posts: 735
Marcel Hogenhuis
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Dear Luc,


From an unpublished chronicle, written in WW-2 by a member of the I./NJG 1 who had access to the (then still existing KTB's) I can offer this reference:


"Auch in der folgende Nacht (5/6 July 1941 that is, MH) kam es zur Feindberührung. Uffz.Macke stiess beim Angriff auf starke Gegenwehr. Sein Bordfunker Uffz.Kabon wurde verwundet, der Jäger zu vorzeitiger Rückkehr und Bauchlandung wegen Beschädigung der Maschine gezwungen."


If this primary German source is correct (and of what I was able to check with other sources, this chronicle is reliable) the Bf110 was therefore not shot down (resulting in a fatal crash) but as much damaged that it had to make an emergency landing a.s.a.p.


No further details given, In the NVM I read that Kabon had minor injuries from schrapnell (probably from bullets). The incident occurred soon after 03.00 hours.


Best regards, Marcel
__________________
airfield Venlo in WW-2, I./NJG 1, He219-project
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 28th December 2018, 19:02
Luc Vervoort Luc Vervoort is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 327
Luc Vervoort is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Dear David and Marcel,


Many thanks for the additional info you kindly supplied. Sorry for delay in replying – a part of my wifi-network went on holiday and I have now partly wired wifi…


The claim of the RAF reargunner has to be ‘damaged’ not ‘destroyed’.


As far as I could find back the British time zone was in July 1941 the same as the German one (UTC + 2).



This gives for R1451 :
The air distance between Alkmaar and East Wretham is approx. 267 km. This distance can be covered by a Wellington in 1 hour.
The air distance between Alkmaar and Gruitrode is approx.180 km. Can this distance be covered by a Bf110 in approx. ½ hour (approx 360 km/hour) ?


This gives for R1532 :
The indication of the time at the RAF side doesn’t match with the time mentioned from the German side.
The air distance between the Dutch coast and East Wretham is at least approx.220 km. This distance can be covered by a Wellington in 1 hour.
The air distance between the Dutch coast and Gruitrode is at least approx.140 km. How long would be required by a Bf110 to cover this distance ? 20 minutes ? The soonest the Bf110 could have been at Gruitrode is 3h45 – 4h00 = ?


No additional details are available for Z6555 of 78 Squadron.


If the above calculations are correct the reargunner of R1532 can be removed from the list, with only 2 remaining.


Looking forward to receive your comments.


Best wishes for 2019


Luc
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 28th December 2018, 22:20
Steve Smith's Avatar
Steve Smith Steve Smith is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent
Posts: 398
Steve Smith is on a distinguished road
Re: RAF Bomber gunner claim during the night 5-6/07/1941 over Belgium

Hi,

No.218 Squadron had two encounters on this operation claiming the destruction of a Bf110 and a JU88. Flying Officer Ralph ( Wellington Mk.Ic T2887 HA-W ) claimed a Me110 on the return flight. Sergeant Banks ( Wellington Mk.Ic R1436 HA-L ) claimed a JU88 over the Zuider Zee and reported it was seen going down in flames crashing into the sea below. I have yet to find a combat report for either.

Regards

Steve
__________________
No.218(Gold Coast) Squadron Association Historian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Klaus Mietusch's Opponents Nick Hector Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 22nd September 2018 16:43
RAF bomber loss night 26/27 June 1940? Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 1 16th August 2010 13:51
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 12:13
Claims identites Adam Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 27th May 2005 01:05
56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed Lagarto Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 13th March 2005 00:33


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net