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  #21  
Old 3rd June 2006, 05:26
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Jim:

OOOF, I'm getting motion sick JUST reading that! Obviously in a really large furball it's next to impossible to keep track of what's going on & who's doing what to whom...but back to the P38s claimed by II/JG2 in Tunisia; in defense of the experten of II/JG2, I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield) & Shores at least states it may have been possible that losses/damage may actually have occured but no one had the time/presence of mind to report it on the days they happened;

But of course, it could just be that the pilots of II/JG2 could have been optomistic RE: the assessment of THEIR skills;

NickM
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  #22  
Old 3rd June 2006, 06:37
kb kb is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith A
Perhaps I should make clear what I believe is one of the main reasons for overclaiming. In many combat films other friendly fighters appear in the film. If another fighter is shooting at the same aircraft then surely its possible the pilot is assuming his shooting is doing the damage, rather than he is one of several pilots claiming victory. In the Battle of Britain this seems to have been the case, when large numbers of fighters are attacking a target-rich environment. The Poles were notorious for closing too close with their victims and forming a queue on a victim. The Bader Big Wing was an indication of massive overclaimimg.

The bias of Caldwell in the JG2/26 argument would stand but for other instances where JG2 pilots suffer from a lack of corroboration when JG26 were not involved. And the records of JG2 pilots who move to other units and still outperform their fellow pilots by a long way. Perhaps we are just looking at a common phenomenon that has pertained from the days of Richtofen, Fonck, Rickenbacker and Bishop. Namely that when you come home with a claim its accepted because of who you are. The claims become more extravagant as competition and propaganda kick in.

The base line is that the germans can shoot! Schulz of JG27 proves that, as does Marseille, Schoepfel etc. Whether its training or aircraft its a fact! But maybe the exception doesn't prove the rule.

For the allies Beurling was a sharpshooter, and a target-rich environment for him was god sent. Tuck also seems to have been a killer in whatever bus he was driving. I haven't seem the same attention to detail for the leading American aces but haven't really researched enough, and given the quality of training and equipment I am sure they'd show more.

What I would say is that overall any score should be reduced by at least two-thirds!
According to Nick Beale's coverage of I/JG2 Italian operations during early 1944 overclaiming was pretty common within that unit as well.
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  #23  
Old 3rd June 2006, 08:03
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickM
Jim:

OOOF, I'm getting motion sick JUST reading that! Obviously in a really large furball it's next to impossible to keep track of what's going on & who's doing what to whom...but back to the P38s claimed by II/JG2 in Tunisia; in defense of the experten of II/JG2, I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield) & Shores at least states it may have been possible that losses/damage may actually have occured but no one had the time/presence of mind to report it on the days they happened;

NickM
NickM, if those thing indeed occured in often, those US army airforce officers shall be sacked and sent to frontline as infantry. NickM you should considered one thing: each of those lost aircraft was a US goverment property, so each of them must be account for and each loss must be recorded, even there was some delays. and I do not believe, and would be surprised anybody would believe, that in any air force, an aircraft lost would not be recorded in official report
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  #24  
Old 3rd June 2006, 09:22
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Marsayo:

Certainly LATER in the war they had to account for every dang rivet, bullet & bean--but early on...I get the feeling they may have cut corners here & there;

NickM
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  #25  
Old 3rd June 2006, 09:23
NickM NickM is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Oh sorry...forgot to add that maybe the losses are reported but not on the dates that they actually occured...but then again maybe it's lots of wishful thinking on the part of II/JG2

NickM
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  #26  
Old 3rd June 2006, 18:30
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickM
Marsayo:

Certainly LATER in the war they had to account for every dang rivet, bullet & bean--but early on...I get the feeling they may have cut corners here & there;

NickM
NickM, now we are doing the research based on reports that already included those "later on" reports
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  #27  
Old 5th June 2006, 08:27
Black baron Black baron is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Well, all good stuff. This particularly.

Re. P-38 losses on 8th January 1943.

As well as the P-38 losses for the 14th FG of 3 destroyed and 2 damaged the 82nd FG this day apparently lost 4 Lightnings and 2 pilots. No less than 6 separate missions were flown by the 95th and 97th FS, 3 each. This was an unusually high figure at that point in the campaign for this inexperienced group. The 96th FS was non-operational that day. All 6 were bomber escort missions. It appears the following losses occurred;

And this...

I also read in Fighters over Tunisia that US units had a very hard time with record keeping, given the VERY rough conditions on the ground( air raids, lean supplies, few or no 'official' forms & reports to fill out, moving from airfield to airfield)

Seems a hazy topic at best. Spick has 40 books out on WW2 aviation, don't agree on him being unreliable. he even admitted a mistake regarding a pilots 4 engined score of 44. It was typo, 14 correct number said he.

As for Buehligen being a liar, seems a stretch. 800 missions, 112 kills, knocked down 3 times, ( never hit by an enemy a/c according to The Aces Speak book ), one would have to think he was most likely a rather confident person. It's more often the "can't do it" type of person that engages in overexagerration & lies. But then Rudorrfer may prove that theory to be not always the case.
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  #28  
Old 5th June 2006, 17:08
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

baron, there are some very huge differences between a lia and one overclaimed sometimes. air combat was not like one watching football on your large-scree television, it was very confuse and messy, one could be a very honost man and tell just what he saw in the combat but still overclaimed heavily
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  #29  
Old 5th June 2006, 18:33
alessandro bray alessandro bray is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Hi to all,

the discussion on relationship between claims and real losses is always fashinating and complex.
Here I prefer to skip the confrontation between Luftwaffe and other aviations claims – in parenthesis I consider Luftwaffe claims on average more accurate – in the case of Bühligen’s P-38 claims a good work is “ FW 190 in North Afrika”. Can be interesting to compare Spitfire and P-38 claims and the fact that Spitfire’s are more accurate is maybe another step in favour of incomplete US data, if too overclaim is evident.
Come back to Abschüsse on western front 1941-1943 and examining the JG 2 and JG26 claims, the latter are very close to allied real losses, it is sufficient to compare days when only one of the two JG scored and this is the result. With this, I don’t think the whole JG2 overclaimed, some pilots, like Egon Mayer or Bruno Stolle, or some units, like 8./JG2 whose activities around Brest are simpler to compare with allied losses, are pretty accurate (in the period September 1942-april 1943 this staffel claimed 29 spitfire and I find 26 losses from RAF squadron in exact time and locations); other cases, like Siegried Schnell or the Stab seemed to have often very overclaimed

alessandro Bray
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  #30  
Old 5th June 2006, 20:41
Black baron Black baron is offline
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Re: Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed

Yes I'm familiar with all that Mars. & don't watch football.
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