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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Enjoy Attachment!
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
hello, someone has information about the confimation of these pilots, if there are reliable claimers or severe overclaimers:
GERMAN 267 Otto Kittel (reliable claimer??) 208 Theodor Weissenberger (¿¿??) 189 Max Stotz (reliable claimer??) 178 Johannes Steinhoff (reliable claimer??) 162 Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke 140 Friedrich-Karl 'Tutti' Muller 135 Joachim Muncheberg (reliable claimer??) 133 Alfred Grislawski 125 Dietrich Hrabak 123 Herbert Ihlefeld (reliable claimer??) 122 Wolfgang Tonne (reliable claimer??) 121 Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 114 Werner Schroer (reliable claimer??) 111 Helmut Lent 108 Hans 'Assi' Hahn (reliable claimer??) 105 Günther Lutzow (reliable claimer??) 102 Josef Wurmheller 78 Heinrich Krafft 68 Fritz Losigkeit 63 Gerhard Homuth 59 Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 54 Hannes Trautloft (reliable claimer??) 53 Julius Meimberg 44 Heinz Knoke (reliable claimer??) 34 Günther Specht 30 Friedrich-Karl "Nasen" Müller SPANISH-BLUE STAFFEL---- 12 Gonzalo Hevia Alvarez de Quinones FINLAND---- 94 Eino Ilmari Juutilainen 53.5 Eino Antero Lukkanen 42 Olli Puhakka 32 Kyösti Karhila ROMANIA---- 53 Constantine Cantacuzino 52-44 Alexandre Serbanescu KROATIA---- 44 Mato Dukovac 38 Galic Cvitan JAPAN---- 51-39 Satoshi Anabuki 32-18 Takeo Tanimizu HUNGARY---- 34 Dezjö Szentgyörgyi 28 Lajos Toth 26 György Debrödy Slovakia ---- 32 Jan Reznak 28 Izidor Kovaric ITALY----- 22+14 Teresio Martinoli 21+3 Leonardo Ferrulli (+1 spain) 19 Luigi Gorrini 17+3 Ugo Drago -------------------ALLIED POLAND---- 22 Stanislaw Skalski 18 Boleslaw Michal Gladych 16.5 Eugeniusz Horbaczewski CANADA---- 31.33 George "Buzz" Beurling AUSTRALIA---- 28.5 Clive "Killer" Caldwell New Zealand---- 27.5 Colin Gray 23 Alan Deere USA---- 40 Richard Bong 28 Francis "Gabby" Gabreski 27 Robert S. Johnson 27 Charles H. McDonald 26.83 George E. Preddy 24 John C. Meyer 21.5 Frederick J. Christensen 17 Ira Casius Kepford 16 George Schwartz Welch England---- 38-34+7 James Edgar "Johnnie" Johnson 28 James Harry "Ginger" Lacey 26.5 Eric Stanley Lock 25 Billy Drake 20 Michael Crossley South Africa---- 18 Johannes Jacobus Le Roux J RUSSIA---- 62 Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub 56+6-59+6-60+3 Grigori A. Reschkalow 56+6-59+6 Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin 53+3 Kirill Yevstigneyev Alexeevich 41+17 Vitalii Ivanovich Popkov 19 Georgiy A Bayevskiy SPANISH in VVS--- 35 (27+8) Juan Lario Sanchez 20 Vicente Beltran FRANCE---- 18 Pierre Le Gloan NORWAY---- 14+1 Svein Heglund IRLAND---- 26+6 Brendan Eamonn Fergus Finucane |
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Another exercise in futility.
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hello G
On Finns Juutilainen, fairly inaccurate claimer Luukkanen, average Puhakka and Karhila, fairly accurate Juha |
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Müncheberg, Schroer(both very honest) and Meimberg were honest, possibly Stotz and Steinhoff also.
Weissenberger, and Wurmheller(especially) were dis-honest. Knoke only had half of his claims confirmed, but I think he was possibly dis-honest. I don't know about Hahn, but judging by his claim pattern, and his association with Jg2 is likely to be dis-honest. I think that Meimberg was one of the few honest Jg2 pilots! Regards Johannes |
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
From the little that I've ran across on Hannes Trautloft, he seems to be good claimer but his Spanish Civil War and Polish(?) claims are hard to pin point (I posted a thread trying to determine them).
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
many thanks for the information, with german pilots i only wrong with Wick and Hans Philipp. Hans Assi Hann maybe is a overclaimer ¿?, but someone have he number of the claims aproved by the enemy of these pilots....for example Mölders 33 in Russia-20 confirmed by VVS.......and for the other countries....
regards |
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hi With Mölders his last claim over Russia on 15th July 1941 seems never have to been confirmed, reducing his 33 to 32 or !at least)over 60%, which is about correct for an honest claimer i.e about two-thirds actually crash, and as he is alleged to have made dozens more after his flying ban, for which he didn't bother to submit a claim, then I think we can safely say he was an honest guy! In fact if two-thirds of a pilots claims actually crash, then they are honest.....but mistaken, though this could be down to there wingmen actually witnessing the crash! With night fighters it's the crew that confirmed it, and a flamming bomber is obvious.
Kind Regards Johannes |
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
Hi
Just curious - what sources have been use for the lists? Someone must obviously have collected and cross-referenced all losses of both allied and axis air forces with a hitherto unknown degree of accuracy. As one who has been trying to compile these I would be very interested in including this work in my own research. I am especially interested in the losses of the soviet air force, as such lists covering the entire war in the east on all front areas with aircraft serial numbers, locations and so on has been unavailable. I naturally assume that this has been done before this list was published on the internet, especially when allied pilotes are listed, as it seems a lot of people are annoyed when their war heroes are listed as unreliable. Several of the names listed have been used as sources for publications that probably should be revised, with notes on their reliability as historical sources. Regards, Andreas B
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Re: 7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List
On overclaiming''i read in my books-by historiacly accurate endorsed book authors;
fighter and bomber claims.1941-42- the turning point books and many others by such endorsed authors- one states fight with me 109s one seen with smoke ? and me 109s claimed 4- spifires only 2 were lost-2 force landed. on ..COAST' .NOW THE GERMAN PILOT's WENT HOME NOT MAKIN THIS AS A THERE CLAIMs.. YET WAS THEY RIGHT FOR THE CLAIMS..??? to be added on there scores... ''GIVEN THAT 2 SPITFIRES FORCE LANDED ON ENGLISH SOIL..FROM THERE BASE.. over claiming surly Not.. Sharon''
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