Books about Luftwaffe and air war by Olaf Gröhler

[Pawel Burchard]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

By the way, why not to ask Groehler himself?

If he is the same person as mentioned here http://www.polwiss.fu-berlin.de/fsi/ap/ap5-sedstaat.htm (I believe so), than he passed away lately.

Pozdrowienia,
Pawel

[Marius]

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Germany was in hurry to finish the campaign and was also in hurry to get Warsaw. 


Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude".

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Also, it seems you overestimate Luftwaffe abilities, as IIRC, on 17.09 raids on Warsaw were cancelled and all the efforts directed toward tactical targets. 


On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler. Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3. And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier.
In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Yes, but nevertheless Germany was waiting several days for the surrender of Warsaw, without bombing it. So we could see this as a "trial of human attitude".

God, save us from the German human attitude!

On 17.9. should have appear Polish parlementaires, but they didn`t. Cancelling all Luftwaffe attacks against Warsaw on this day was a personal decision of Hitler.

Hitler's decision was to send all tactical units to Kutno area and that was teh reason of the order.

Bombing of Warsaw wouldn`t have been a problem, because several bomb groups (Kampfgeschwader) were ready for this action, for example KG 3.

Indeed, and indeed Warsaw was bombed this day. Churches, hospitals and various other civilian buildings were targetted.

And see, the heavy bombing was carried out on the 25th (!!), not earlier.

Apparently you believe everything before had been done by martians.

In spite of Russian aggression on the 17th and the whole desperately operational situation of Polish troops the Polish decision not to surrender in Warsaw was totally foolish.

Please, refrain from your comments, they are neither wise nor appropriate.
Poland fought as long as possible because this was a result of agreements with France and UK.

[Ruy Horta]

Lets not go into the same direction as last thread, disagreement is fine, but shifting towards provocation is not.

[Franek Grabowski]

You are right. I think I should ignore those posts.

[Marius]

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 God, save us from the German human attitude! 


Yes, for you it is hard to believe, but so it was. You must differe some things from others. Not all Germans were personifications of evil.

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 Hitler's decision was to send all tactical units to Kutno area and that was teh reason of the order. 


Kutno was not the reason of cancelling the bombing mission. Germany expected the parlementaires and the surrender of Warsaw. However some units were indeed directed to the Kutno pocket.

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 Indeed, and indeed Warsaw was bombed this day. Churches, hospitals and various other civilian buildings were targetted. 


This is Polish propaganda. Luftwaffe did not attack on this day. Or can you tell me what Luftwaffe units did?

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 Apparently you believe everything before had been done by martians. 


I mean "heavy bombing". On the 25th it was for the first time that bombs were dropped in Warsaw almost everywhere, without regard to civilian lives.

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 Poland fought as long as possible because this was a result of agreements with France and UK. 


Great! After 17 days nothing happened from the French or English direction. Polish government flew outside the country. Additionally Russians invaded from the East. But the Poles had to hope for a miracle and die for nothing. Really wise.

Marius

[Jens]

Some points from me.

1. Olaf Groehler (not Gröhler) is dead for years.

2. Olaf Groehlers "Geschichte des Luftkrieges" is a popular rework of his Dissertation. So for absolut clearence of this point you should try to get the original work.

3. According to the usual behaving in Third Reich, there is no need for a written order to make a war crime or something similar (in other nations maybe also). Alone the intention of this order is clear.

[Marius]

Jens,

1. Do you know when exactly he died?

2. The readers have bought and read the book and not the dissertation. But why should it differe from the book?
Many people are using the book as a reliable source (look at the German war crimes exposition!). But nevertheless I have presented the original document here on the forum. So you can compare it with the "cut out" done by Gröhler. The authors intention was very clearly.

3. I wrote earlier that in many countries there were discussions about the possibilities and effects of an air war against civilians. This German document is clearly showing it was also done in Germany (discussed does not mean here executed).
You will not find a single target in Polish campaign that was bombed with the intention of demoralizing civilians. There was no time to and no need to do such things.
On the other hand before the war in Poland there were plans to bomb German cities, for example Königsberg (with the modern P.37 bombers). Was here the intension clear?

Marius

[Jens]

Originally Posted by Marius

Jens,

1. Do you know when exactly he died?

2. The readers have bought and read the book and not the dissertation. But why should it differe from the book?
Many people are using the book as a reliable source (look at the German war crimes exposition!). But nevertheless I have presented the original document here on the forum. So you can compare it with the "cut out" done by Gröhler. The authors intention was very clearly.

3. I wrote earlier that in many countries there were discussions about the possibilities and effects of an air war against civilians. This German document is clearly showing it was also done in Germany (discussed does not mean here executed).
You will not find a single target in Polish campaign that was bombed with the intention of demoralizing civilians. There was no time to and no need to do such things.
On the other hand before the war in Poland there were plans to bomb German cities, for example Königsberg (with the modern P.37 bombers). Was here the intension clear?

Marius

Sorry couldnt answer since my absence from internet.

1. Didn't know exactly when, but must be around 1994 or so. Groehler was accussed for working with the Stasi (Eastern German Secret Service). He was fired and a broken man due this accussing. Later i heard from western german historicans, Groehler wasn't guilty... .

2. The intention is clear, but must not be wrong. Maybe he knows more. (Other documents which are not so clear like the quoted document, which ist the best for popular work)

3. That seems wrong. Already at 1st September 1939 german aircraft has order to destroy polish towns. article from German Newspaper "Die Zeit" http://hermes.zeit.de/pdf/index.php?...03/07/A-Wielun
Stukas got direct order to destroy the polish small town Wielun. See also reportage by german TV ZDF
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/10/0,...185322,00.html
interviewing last surviving pilot by StG-77, who admitted to get order of targetting civilian buildings. Polish civilians reported also machinegunfire by Stukas.

[Marius]

Jens,

2. We had an interesting and hot discussion here on the forum where I asked for such a Luftwaffe document clearly showing the German intention against civilians (in Poland or later). Nobody was able to show us such a document and this is very interesting, even surprising.
If Groehler would have know more he had never to cut out the sentences from this particular original document. He surely would present such a "strong" document. The solution is clear: he hadn`t at hand a better document.

3. Joachim Trenkner`s article is well known. But it is a fairy tale (the ZDF reportage was based on Trenkner`s article). The only truth is that on 1.9. German bombs hit Wielun. The rest is based on what was written in Poland after the war. And this was clear directed in a particular direction (one more German war crime). Trenkner even manipulated the take off time of the Ju 87`s in German original documents to bring the evidence that the bombing attack was a brutal act of terror against civilians (according to Trenker the bombs fell at 4.40 hours - 5 minutes before the official attack by German troops!!).

The machine gun fire is much questionable. Every book describing the opening of the war on 1.9.1939 is stating about the very bad weather conditions in the morning of that day. Make your conclusions yourself.

In original German documents you will find the military target expected in Wielun: a Polish "cavalry brigade". Yes, hereby were killed civilians. But the intention was to hit Polish troops, not civilians.

Marius