Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10th June 2006, 21:05
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 556
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Gentlemen,

the immediate success of my prior posting referring to the clarification of a loss of III./JG 54 a couple of days ago encourages me to try it again:

In my sources I have a loss report from 3./JG 50 dated October 21st, 1943, which states that Uffz. Ulrich - no Christian name known - was shot down and killed in aerial combat near Kloster Chumb in Bf 109 G-6, WNr. 160 085.

As far as I can see there were no aerial activities over the Reich by daylight on October 21st at all and definitely no air combats.

So what have we got here - did this loss concern another unit - "Wilde Sau " at night ? -, was it the date again or what is wrong ?

Any founded help would be most welcome.

Regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12th June 2006, 07:48
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 430
Christer Bergström is on a distinguished road
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Hi Jochen,

1943-10-21
Bf 109G-6, WNr 160085 3./JG 50
Nördl. Kloster Chumb
Flugzeugführer Uffz Ullrich, Paul †
Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.

Please compare the Werknummer with a loss reported by II./JG 53 on 13 December 1943 - possibly WNr 160085 again...

Apparently, there is confusion regarding serial numbers of lost aircraft not only within the RAF...
__________________
All the best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th June 2006, 11:33
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aurskog, Norway
Posts: 1,492
Andreas Brekken is on a distinguished road
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Hi, Christer.

If you are referring to the aircraft damaged 15% due to pilot error at Wien-Seyring this is reported as WNr 150085 (not 160085) in the loss report of 16.12.1943.

Regards,
Andreas
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12th June 2006, 16:33
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,916
Jim P. will become famous soon enough
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

The 150 xxx WNr. series were G-10s, all from 45. No record of JG 53 losing any other machine from this block. Also the lowest number I have is 150506.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12th June 2006, 17:41
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 2,152
John Beaman is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Hi Jochen:

There seems to be a lot of conflicting data that day. I cannot add to what Christer and Jim have said regarding the loss, except the SKZ is listed as NA+TF.

In checking Foreman’s book, the only action listed by daylight were Ramrods by RAF and USSAF fighters where 5 Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units. The action is listed as over France and the Low Countries. In checking Frank Oylnyk’s information, there were no claims made by USAAF units on 21-Oct., so something in wrong there. However, on 20-Oct there was an apparent Rodeo that went into France, the Low Countries. Several Fw 190 claims were made by USAAF units and pilots from the 353rd FG made 3 x Bf 109 damaged claims near Sittard and Duren. I am not sure where these are in relation to Kloster Chumb. I wonder if someone has a wrong date?

John
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12th June 2006, 19:06
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 430
Christer Bergström is on a distinguished road
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

I think Jochen's Wilde Sau theory is the most plausible. Unfortunately, Alfred Grislawski ( who de facto led JG 50 by that time) is no longer among us so that we can ask him if he remembers that pilot.
__________________
All the best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12th June 2006, 22:06
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aurskog, Norway
Posts: 1,492
Andreas Brekken is on a distinguished road
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Interesting, Jim.

There is no doubt that the second digit in the loss report is a '5', I will make a scan and put out in this answer later tonight.

Regards,
Andreas
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12th June 2006, 22:33
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,916
Jim P. will become famous soon enough
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

My guess is that its a typo and possibly WNr. 15085 - certainly something not uncommon with those documents. Interestingly, this is the only WNr. missing between 15080 and 15089 (15090 also missing) and many of these were JG 53 machines.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12th June 2006, 22:41
Michal Michal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 479
Michal
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Jim P.,

it looks like very good explanation. I would guess you are right.

Best

Michal
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12th June 2006, 23:36
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower Saxony, Germany
Posts: 688
Rasmussen is on a distinguished road
Re: Combat loss of 3./JG 50 on October 21st, 1943

Unfortunately he isn't right because the W.Nr. 15 085 was an G - 4 trop with an accident on 12 February, 1943, in Leipzig - Mockau. The a/c was destroyed (IIRC 70%) and not accepted by BAL.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

P.S.: An typo of course ... but what about the 140 085? I checked the Prien - chronicle - there are some losses from the 140 xxx - batch like the 140 088, 140 084 and so on.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
KG6 loss on 28th March or 28th April 1943 Hans Nauta Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 25th October 2014 12:03
Combat loss of III./JG 54 on May 26th, 1943 Jochen Prien Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 2nd June 2006 18:45
Discussion on the air war in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 1st April 2005 19:47
Tunisian losses Juha Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 29 25th March 2005 14:56
Losses of III/JG2 January 1943 to October 1943 . infos needs heinz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 12th February 2005 19:56


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net