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  #21  
Old 2nd May 2018, 16:54
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Hi Nick,

Yes, I have a few, but most of them just: "crashlanded", or "missing". Hard to determine the actual cause. It is a lot easier to check by date and see if there was any losses.

I have the full list of planes in 511 ORAP for May 1, 1945 by AC serials, engine serials & tail numbers (markings):

24 Pe-2s
2 UPe-2s (trainers)
1 Po-2 (messenger) biplane


For other dates I have the full list of 511 ORAP planes by serials only:

October 1, 1944: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2, 3 Po-2
January 1, 1945: 24 Pe-2, 1 UPe-2
April 1, 1945: 25 Pe-2

(Lots of changes, transfers, etc.)

Gabor
Cheers, Gabor,

Can you perhaps confirm:

Heinrich Tammen's claim of 21.9.44/1715?
Birkner's claim of 17.10.44/1500?
Barkhorn claimed one one on 24.11.44 but no timing is given...
Manfred Leisebein on 18.1.45/1500?

Nick
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  #22  
Old 2nd May 2018, 17:16
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Hi Nick,

September 21, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest record: September 13, 1944 - flak, burned
October 17, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closes record: October 26, 1944 - missing
November 24, 1944: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. Closest records: November 21 - crashlanding, a Po-2!!!, S/N: 640732, and December 3, 1944 - crashlanding.
January 18, 1945: no permanent loss at least in 511 ORAP. One write off, however, on January 20, 1945:

511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 15/248, engines: 425-1372 and 41-4931 was "shot down" by fighters! No casualty listed, plane written off by January 20, 1945, again by 26th - probably delayed record after mechanical inspection at airfield.

Note, that 39 ORAP and 48 OGvRAP GK also flew Pe-2s (and Pe-3s) along with some Yak-9D, Yak-9R, A-20B planes in the area!
Gabor
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  #23  
Old 2nd May 2018, 17:50
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Nick,

Please note, that dates of mechanical write-offs might not match the dates of reported action losses found in combat diaries! Mechanical dates might have some days of delay depends on inspection time, attempted repairs, etc.

Anyways, 511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed in the October 1, 1944 inventory, but NOT listed in the January 1, 1945 list are:

12/248 - MIA, 26-31.10.44 report - Кудинов Иван Васильевич crew on October 26, 1944
12/339 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 3, 1944
13/228 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - Козлов crew by December 22, 1944
16/153 - wear and tear, 01-15.11.1944 report - by November 9, 1944
19/260 - crashlanded, 31.12.1944 report - by December 23, 1944

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on January 1, 1945, but not listed on October 1, 1944 yet:

9/341 - из 15 ОРЗАП, 16-25.10.44 report - by October 17, 1944


I AM SORRY, on October 1, 1944: 511 ORAP had 24 Pe-2s but on January 1, 1945 they had ONLY 20 Pe-2s, NOT 24!!!!! On April 1, 1945 they had 25 Pe-2s.

So after October 1, 1944: 24-5+1=20 (for January 1, 1945.)
Gabor
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  #24  
Old 2nd May 2018, 21:11
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Nick,

511 ORAP Pe-2s which were still listed on January 1, 1945, but were not listed on April 1, 1945. If the Pe-2 loss/claim on January 18, 1945 belonged to the 511 ORAP and was total loss, then it had to be one of these four:

11/196 - MIA, 16.01.1945 report, MIA by January 6, 1945, Еремин Виталий Михайлович crew, ОБД - 6.1.45, отчет 16.1.45
15/248 - Lost in dogfight by 20.01.1945, В ОБД не нашел. Списан 20.01.1945!!! - This one?????
2/229 - crashlanded, 20-25.03.1945, списаны 31.3.45 на рулежке произошел пожар, техник Сораколетов
8/250 - в 260 САМ ОдВО, left the unit, 15-20.03.1945 report

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on April 1, 1945, but not listed on January 1, 1945 yet:

11/363
13/363
13/385
14/382
16/379
17/377
20/383
4/377
6/377

So between January 1 - April 1, 1945: 20-4+9=25 (Pe-2s.)

Gabor
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  #25  
Old 2nd May 2018, 21:33
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

The only 511 ORAP trainer UPe-2 (УПе-2) listed on October 1, 1944, January 1, 1945 AND May 1, 1945 was 10/230. Interestingly it was not listed on April 1, 1945, but it could be an error. Engines: 41-4095 and 41-4757. The 2nd, new UPe-2 on May 1, 1945 was 20/456 with engines: 51-10063 and 51-10046.

On February 1, 1945 511 ORAP had 19 Pe-2s, plus one under (major) repair.
On March 1, 1945 511 ORAP had 23 Pe-2s.

Gabor
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  #26  
Old 3rd May 2018, 00:10
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Nick,

511 ORAP Pe-2s which were still listed on January 1, 1945, but were not listed on April 1, 1945. If the Pe-2 loss/claim on January 18, 1945 belonged to the 511 ORAP and was total loss, then it had to be one of these four:

11/196 - MIA, 16.01.1945 report, MIA by January 6, 1945, Еремин Виталий Михайлович crew, ОБД - 6.1.45, отчет 16.1.45
15/248 - Lost in dogfight by 20.01.1945, В ОБД не нашел. Списан 20.01.1945!!! - This one?????
2/229 - crashlanded, 20-25.03.1945, списаны 31.3.45 на рулежке произошел пожар, техник Сораколетов
8/250 - в 260 САМ ОдВО, left the unit, 15-20.03.1945 report

511 ORAP Pe-2s which are listed on April 1, 1945, but not listed on January 1, 1945 yet:

11/363
13/363
13/385
14/382
16/379
17/377
20/383
4/377
6/377

So between January 1 - April 1, 1945: 20-4+9=25 (Pe-2s.)

Gabor
Cheers, Gabor,

It seems 15/248 is a very likely possibility for Leisebein's victory.

A special thankyou for sharing this archival material with us. It's the true nuts-and-bolts of the air war
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  #27  
Old 3rd May 2018, 01:26
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Hi Nick,
You are most welcome. Yes, I think your 'candidate' for January 18, 1945 was 511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 15/248.

By the way, the Pe-2 serial numbers were painted on the tail surfaces with a horizontal line. See pic of 511 ORAP Pe-2, S/N: 5/308, which was listed in all of my Pe-2 service lists and most likely survived the war:

October 1, 1944
January 1, 1945
April 1, 1945
May 1, 1945.

On May 1, 1945 her tactical tail No. was '29', engine serials: 41-4916 and 41-4859.

Cheers,
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 16th May 2018 at 13:32.
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  #28  
Old 3rd May 2018, 10:39
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researcher111 researcher111 is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Gabor can you post or email me a good photo of a 511 ORAP PE-2 ? Here's one dated
June 1944, can you ID by chance the pilot ?

Last edited by researcher111; 23rd June 2018 at 23:24.
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  #29  
Old 3rd May 2018, 13:18
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Drop an e-mail address in PM. Your 511 ORAP Pe-2 was lost during WWII, because No.6 was not in the list of 511 ORAP planes on May 1, 1945. Only these tail numbers:

10-18, 21, 23-35, plus one without a number. (plus 2 UPe-2s)

Gabor
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  #30  
Old 3rd May 2018, 14:48
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Re: A-20 17 VA

Will do Gospodin Gabor
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