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  #1  
Old 19th July 2015, 15:44
kirche kirche is offline
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Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Good day, comrades
In mid-June 2015, our group found a place crash Pe-2 near ur. Zherebtsovo Sychevsky district of Smolensk region. Find the numbers of both motors. With the help of researchers TsAMO it was found that it Pe-2 № 16/129 - 08.01.1943 (MIA). The crew of 11 ORAP 3 VA - (flight co.) Lt. Timofey Kirillovich Karpov; (observer) Lt. Vladimir Petrovich Moskalev; (gunner) st. S-t Victor Andreevich Artemenko
Recon. mission: airfield Kolpachki-Bely-Nikitiki-Durovo-Andreyki-Olenino. After 39 minutes of flight at 14.34 (Moscow time) from the aircraft was received a report on the movement of the column of up to 50 vehicles on the road Vyazma-Durovo, after which communication with the crew stopped.
Prien's "JFV" Teil 9/II - Fw. Valter Bracke 8/JG 51 (Fw-190) - Pe-2 (4 claim) 12:40 PlQu. 47 763
O.K.L. Fighter Claims (Tony Wood's List) - Fw. Paul Brake 8./JG 51 Pe-2 PlQu. 47 763 at 7.300 m. 12.40
PlQu. 35 ost 47 763 it is 10-15 km north of the crash site. The error is minimal. 08.01.1943 - 12.40 (CET) = 14.40 (Moscow time)

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ww2ger.htm
Bracke Walter Luftwaffe 7 claims JG51; WIA 5/Jul/1943
Brake Paul Luftwaffe 11 claims JG 51
Foto «Walter Brake» from JG51:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/f7c4aaa4c...iivfo2_500.jpg
http://41.media.tumblr.com/3ff032d12...iivfo1_500.jpg
05.07.1943 Fw 190A-5 «Black 4» W.Nr.7282; 8./J.G. 51 Bracke, Fw. Walter – verwundet; Feindbeschuss (LaGG-3), Pl.Qu. 63322, 100% F

My question is: Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) - is the same pilot? How 's his name realy? Pictured is he? Or is it a different pilots 8./JG51? Then whose claim 08/Jan/1943 on Pe- 2?
Best regards,
Kirill
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Old 20th July 2015, 13:42
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

From Kracker:
Bracke, Walter, Fw; 2 victories;8/JG-51; Fw 190A-5 Werk # 7282 (lost 7/5/43)EK 2, Wound Badge, Fighter Operational Clasp; WIA 5 July, 1943 by enemy fire in Russia, Map Quadrant Pl.Qu.63322. One known victory, a Soviet Il-2 on 1 August, 1942. A 2nd Il-2 on 5 August, 1942. Magnus Report, 7 victories.
Not in Zeng/ Stankey Luftwaffe Officers.
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Old 20th July 2015, 17:04
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Mathews/Foreman only list a Fw Walter Bracke with 8./JG 51 with a total score of 12 victories in the East, including a Pe-2 on 8.1.1943.

No Paul Brake

B Rgds
Stig
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Old 20th July 2015, 18:48
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Monaco, the last time I checked "Kracker" it had both names but it's the same man. Kirill, I would go with Walter Bracke as the "Paul Brake" didn't list any details for the man.
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Old 20th July 2015, 21:51
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Thank you very much, Gentlemens.
Stig, Michael - you are confirming my thoughts.
If Walter Bracke = "Paul Brake," then I know 14 claims this Flugzeugführer:
1) 01 Aug 1942 – Il-2,
2) 05 Aug 1942 – Il-2,
3) 22 Aug 1942 – Il-2,
4) 08 Jan 1943 – Pe-2 (from 11 ORAP 3 VA),
5) 23 Feb 1943 – Il-2,
6) 23 Feb 1943 – Il-2,
7) 24 Feb 1943 – Il-2,
8) 24 Feb 1943 – Il-2,
9) 13 Mar 1943 – Il-2,
10) 13 Mar 1943 – Il-2,
11) 18 Mar 1943 – MiG-3,
12) 18 Mar 1943 – Pe-2,
13) 10 May 1943 – Yak-1,
14) 14 May 1943 – Pe-2,
How many of these claims with victory of the one God knows.
Currently we are searching for relatives of the deceased crew Pe-2. Eternal glory.
Best regards,
Kirill
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Old 20th July 2015, 23:16
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Well Kirill

The two you list on 24.2.1943 are not listed by Matthews/Foreman!
They are, by the way, not under the name Paul Brake?

Can't check right now what Prien states in his JFV verband series

Cheers
Stig
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Old 22nd July 2015, 06:51
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Hi Guys

Luftwaffe pilots claimed only eleven Sowiet aircraft on 8th January 1943( 1 x 2(F)./AG 22, 1 x 9./JG 54, 2 x 7./JG 52, 1 x 8./JG 51, 2 x 1./JG 51, 1 x 2./JG 51, 3 x 3./JG 51), of which only one was a Pe-2, all the others were single engined(1 x MiG-3, 2x LaGG-3, 7 x Il-2.
Time for Bracke was 1240 hrs. Those mentioned for 24th February 1943 duplicates for those of 23rd February 1943!

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 22nd July 2015, 11:31
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Thank you for your help.
I have no doubt who shot down PE-2, which we found (Fw. Bracke meets the minimum requirements according to four criteria).
To check according to Jochen Prien and TsAMO everything it claims I have no possibility (and no need for me). I understand that PE-2 11 ORAP 08 jan 1943 was shot down by Fw. Walter Bracke, He had claims 12-14 in the year and He was shot down 05 jul 1943 on the first day of air combat in the Orel-Kursk battle.

Stig, Johannes, those mentioned for 24 February 1943 cannot be duplicates for those of 23rd February 1943 - they are quite different and refer to four different document.
Tony Wood's List:
23.02.43 Fw. Paul Brake 8./JG 51 - Il-2 - 44 294: tiefflug 10.15
23.02.43 Fw. Paul Brake 8./JG 51 - Il-2 - 54 183: tiefflug 10.20
24.02.43 Fw. Paul Brake 8./JG 51 - Il-2 - 44 283: at 100 m. 06.35
24.02.43 Fw. Paul Brake 8./JG 51 - Il-2 - 44 283: at 100 m. 06.37
The duplication was possible in fact for each day. The pilot (not experienced) wanted to see that shot down two aircraft, but may actually attacked one. Il-2 is not so easily shot down - especially two in the same square of the map for two minutes.

Best regards,
Kirill
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Old 22nd July 2015, 12:09
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

Johannes/Kirill

Just checked JFV 12/II page 60.
Prien says first of all (for both days) the pilot's name was Walter Bracke.

Prien also lists two kills each day for Bracke, with different times and different PlQ, just like Kirill states.

First I must ask
Why does Tony Wood state a name which seems not to exist? Who was Paul Brake and why is his name connected to Walter Bracke? Did Brake exist in the first place?

Secondly Johannes, why are you so certain there is a duplication?

Cheers
Stig
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Old 22nd July 2015, 17:30
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

I think everything can be explained very simply - "lost in translation"))
Tony Wood - American who read German written documents to BAMO archive. He has a lot of errors in the double translation Russian names for example. Some names I can't understand if I don't work in the area.
The team of Jochen Prien - Germans who read a lot of German documents much better.

regards,
Kirill
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