Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 17th May 2009, 16:04
Steve Brew's Avatar
Steve Brew Steve Brew is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 125
Steve Brew is on a distinguished road
41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

At around 08:00 on 14 Febrary 1945, 41 Squadron arrived over Rheine Aerodrome on an armed recce to see a dozen long-nosed FW190Ds orbiting at 1,000 feet, as well as several Me262s in the process of taking off. The Focke-Wulfs belonged to JG26, and were forming up to cover the Me262s on a bombing mission to Nijmegen, Gennep and Kleve. 41 then spotted another dozen FW190s above them and to the east of the airfield, which belonged to III/JG54 and were forming up to provide high cover for the Me262 mission.

I have consulted The JG26 War Diary and Don Caldwell directly, so have the story from JG26's point of view, but am seeking information on the Me262s, as 41 Squadron claimed two damaged. Don suggests they may have belonged to Stab KG 51 or I./KG 51, which were both based at Rheine. Not being his specialty - nor indeed mine! - I was hoping someone may be able to provide me some information on the 262s involved, please, and potentially confirm whether they recorded any casualties over and around Rheine on this date.

Any additional informaiton would be most appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 18th May 2009, 11:18
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Aurskog, Norway
Posts: 1,492
Andreas Brekken is on a distinguished road
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Hi

I have 5 Me 262's of I./KG 51 listed as damaged or destroyed to various reasons on this date.

Location for two of them given as Fl.Pl.Mühlheim, two not given and one listed as 'by Emmerich'

As we all know there might be more due to the fact that we do not have the lists filed after 1.4.1945 available

In only one of these incidents the pilot was harmed.

Regards,
Andreas B

List:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=103177
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=102902
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=103175
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=103176
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=102959
__________________
Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 18th May 2009, 20:06
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,246
Stig Jarlevik will become famous soon enough
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Andreas

I am puzzled about one loss listed by you and that is WNr 500642
http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=103175

Checking various second hand sources of mine, according to
a) The Messerschmitt 262 combat diary, it was WNr 110615 9K+NL in which Rudolf Hoffmann was killed
b) Me 262 Vol 3 (Classic 5) says it was WNr 110615 piloted by Richard Hoffmann
c) Me 262 the production log says that WNr 110615 9K+NL was lost already on 2 Feb 1944 (going back to Me 262 combat diary, well it is there too....)
d) Looking at the web site http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/block3.htm
WNr 110615 is listed as lost with the double dates under question marks.

"Your" Wnr 500642 is not listed in any of the sources above, so is it possible for you to expand and verify that this really is the correct WNr for the loss in question? It certainly fits better than the present thesis that 110615 rose from the ashes and was again lost 12 days later. It also seems more realistic with the code 9K+CL. Finally I also notice your slightly different spelling of Hofmann. Also can we unite that his first name was Rudolf?

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24th May 2009, 16:34
Steve Brew's Avatar
Steve Brew Steve Brew is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 125
Steve Brew is on a distinguished road
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Gents

Apologies for the delay in responding. Thank you for your replies to my query. Most appreciated.

Regards
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th October 2009, 01:07
silverfox silverfox is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
silverfox is on a distinguished road
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Hi guys,
I am currently researching the Me262 of Rudolf Hoffmann shoot down by Tony Gaze of 610 Squadron in his Spitfire Mk. XIV on the 14th February, 1945. I am producing a limited edition print of this event and am trying to identify exactly where the 262 crashed. I have read both books about Tony’s life (‘Six Aces’ & ‘Almost Unknown’) and both give conflicting locations of the interception, one identifies Nijmegen and the other Munster. I meet with the pilot Tony earlier this week & he couldn’t recall where it went down but did say it was just before the Rhein River. The town of Emmerich am Rhein, Germany which Andreas mentioned on his web site would fit in well with Tony’s accounts but I wonder what logs or accounts where referenced to confirm this the be the site? I want to use the name of the town in the print so need to be 100% sure that it’s the place.

Tony’s flight log;

F/L F.A.O. Gaze of 610 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 14 February, 1945:

"On 14/2/45 I was leading Wavey Black section of two aircraft on standing patrol over NIJMEGEN. At about 1630 hours I sighted an Arado 234 pulling up from attacking the CLEVE area. I dropped my tank and attempted to intercept but despite the fact that I cut the corner it pulled away easily at 7,000 ft. After this we continually chased Arados over this area. I fired at two without result. At about 1700 hours when it was apparent that the jets were diving down through the cloud which was from 9 - 11,000 ft. I climbed up through it, leaving Black 2 below, hoping to warn him when they dived. Then I did an orbit at 13,000 ft. to clear off the ice on the windscreen and sighted 3 M.E. 262's in Vic formation passing below me at cloud top level. I dived down behind them and closed in, crossing behind the formation and attacked the port aircraft which was lagging slightly. I could not see my sight properly as we were flying straight into the sun, but fired from dead astern, at a range of 350 yards, hitting it in the starboard jet with the second burst; at which the other 2 aircraft immediately dived into cloud. It pulled up slowly and turned to starboard and I fired obtaining more strikes on fuselage and jet which caught fire. The enemy rolled over on to its back and dived through cloud. I turned 180 and dived after it, calling on the R/T to warn my no.2; on breaking cloud I saw an aircraft hit the ground and explode about a mile ahead of me, at E.9859. I claim this M.E.262 destroyed. Black 2 also witnessed this explosion."
*

I./KG 51, Me 262 A-2, WNr. 500064, 9K+CL, Fw. Hofmann Rudolf, KIA.

I really appreciate your help with this.
Cheers

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14th October 2009, 11:09
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 383
mhuxt
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

E9859 certainly corresponds to Emmerich am Rhein, though what records would have been kept on the ground I don't know. Perhaps there are some German graves records.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14th October 2009, 13:10
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 166
karl lusink is on a distinguished road
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhuxt View Post
E9859 certainly corresponds to Emmerich am Rhein, though what records would have been kept on the ground I don't know. Perhaps there are some German graves records.
Yes indeed!
Fw Rudolf Hofmann 09-11-1918 Wölfersheim
is buried in the Cemetery at Rees, East of Emmerich.
Grave 97
Verlustmeldung gives werknummer 500064 !
I think Hofmann crashed East of Emmerich his first burial location may have been in:
Brünen/Elten/Hurl/Huthum/Isselburg/Vehlingen or Rees!
236 casualties were brought from these places to Rees Cemetery(contains 871 graves)
Kind Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA
www.arga-nl.nl
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 14th October 2009, 13:30
Snautzer's Avatar
Snautzer Snautzer is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,292
Snautzer will become famous soon enough
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Karl why do i get an virus/trojan alert when i try to access your ARGA site?

normally i would pm to keep the thread as clean as possible but since other members might click on it.i choose not to.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14th October 2009, 16:29
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 166
karl lusink is on a distinguished road
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snautzer View Post
Karl why do i get an virus/trojan alert when i try to access your ARGA site?

normally i would pm to keep the thread as clean as possible but since other members might click on it.i choose not to.
Yes,
Very strange, I will call the man who is responsible for our website, and I will ask him what's wrong.
I know that they are working on a complete new website.
I will let you know!
Regards
Karl Lusink
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14th October 2009, 19:49
Charles Bavarois Charles Bavarois is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Munich
Posts: 214
Charles Bavarois is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: 41 Sqn vs Me262s, Rheine Aerodrome, 14 Feb. 1945

Gents,

found this information from higher German staff:

MA Freiburg RL 2 II/390 ff
Reports of Luftwaffenführungsstab Ic


Situation-Report 14. Februar 1945 evening
for Kampfraum West


Kleve-Gennep area:


13 Me 262 (KG 51) attack on enemy concentrations
0745-0906 hrs
6 a/c landed elsewhere (“Aussenlandung”), 1 brake-off due to technical faults
2 a/c with pilots MIA

Kleve area:
16 Ar 234 (KG 76) and 5 Me 262 (KG 51) attacking 0755-0916 hrs
16 a/c over target, 5 a/c (KG 51) over secondary target

Over own airfield:
88 a/c of II Jagdkorps airfield-defence for KG 76 and KG 51
0745-0950 hrs in 4 (four) missions
2 Spitfire shot down, 1 own a/c 100% loss, 1 a/c MIA, 3 a/c damaged
1 pilot KIA, 1 pilot MIA and 1 pilot MIA


There are other missions reported that day, which are not connected to the early morning strike on Rheine, for example an afternoon raid around 16:00 hrs of KG 51 without losses.


Situation-reports were usually filed twice a day, one in the evining for action during the previous daytime and one early morning for night-activity. It's up to everyone, to judge for himself, how complete these reports were.

Freiburg has at last two different sets of reports, one for the "Reich" and one for "Kampfraum West" (from Norway to Italy). I have not found anything alike on the Ostfront.


HTH


Carl
__________________
Carl E. Charles
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 43 23rd October 2015 14:46
Missing Fighter Command aircrew in FCL volumes Steve49 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 23 15th September 2011 23:15
Operation Jubilee aircrew list Steve49 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 39 12th December 2010 22:00
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 11:13
Spitfire losses January 22nd, 1943 Jochen Prien Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 14th September 2006 01:35


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net