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Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation after the Second World War.

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  #1  
Old 26th February 2012, 19:04
ahafan ahafan is offline
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Col-Tomb toon

hello'
Can anyone tell me if a Col tomb was found 10/5/72 flying a mig 17
did he exist? ........
sharon
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  #2  
Old 26th February 2012, 23:00
mars mars is offline
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mars
Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon

No, Col tomb toon did not exist
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  #3  
Old 26th February 2012, 23:11
mars mars is offline
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Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon

This myth could be originated from a picture showed a Mig painted with more than a dozen red stars, some Americans guessed that belonged to a super aces in the North Vietnam air force, not knowing that usually more than one North Vietnam pilots would fly same Mig and if any of them scored a victory on that Mig, he would paint a red star on the same Mig. Then from radio interception, one of the North Vietnamese call sigh sounded like "Toon" to Americans, so one plus one, there was a super North Vietnam ace name col Toon! According to Vietnamese record, there was no Col Toon in their air force, and the score of their top ace in the Vietnam war were 9 kills
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Old 28th February 2012, 12:37
ahafan ahafan is offline
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Re: \\\\\Col-Tomb toon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mars View Post
This myth could be originated from a picture showed a Mig painted with more than a dozen red stars, some Americans guessed that belonged to a super aces in the North Vietnam air force, not knowing that usually more than one North Vietnam pilots would fly same Mig and if any of them scored a victory on that Mig, he would paint a red star on the same Mig. Then from radio interception, one of the North Vietnamese call sigh sounded like "Toon" to Americans, so one plus one, there was a super North Vietnam ace name col Toon! According to Vietnamese record, there was no Col Toon in their air force, and the score of their top ace in the Vietnam war were 9 kills
Thanks -who was killed by Randy cunningham on 10/5/72
any names.i found none so I guess it was him..but who?
sharon
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Old 9th July 2012, 18:29
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

Nguyen Van Coc from the 921th FR had 9 kills (7) 2 F-4Ds, 1 F-4B, 2 F-105F, 1 F-105D and 1 F-102A. But that was with MiG-21PF.

There are some three MiG-17 aces, but as write before, "Colonel Toon" is a fiction. This day Cunningham and Driscoll had encountered another skilled and anonymus MiG-17 pilot.
A version say this pilot was most likely a flight leader or squadron commander of the 923th Regiment.
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Old 14th July 2012, 04:39
DavidIsby DavidIsby is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

As Vietnamese sources have not identified this pilot (where they have identified many other fighter pilots) it has been suggested that he was non-Vietnamese and that the Toon/Tomb callsign was associated with foreigners.

While it has been suggested that this dogfight never took place (which is why the Vietnamese have never written about it), but Driscoll's reputation for veracity remains high. With Cunningham getting out of federal prison, he may have more time to go over the events of 10 May 1972.
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Old 17th October 2019, 10:15
Edward L. Hsiao Edward L. Hsiao is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

Sometimes I wonder if Cunningham really make ace or not. I think not.

Edward L. Hsiao
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Old 17th October 2019, 17:23
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

According to IstvŠn Toperczer, Cunningham used two missiles to shoot down a pilot named Do Hang, who ejected from his MiG-17 but was killed by 20 mm cannon fire from either Cunningham or his wingman.

Cunningham/Driscoll themselves were shot down some 20-30 minutes later by Vu Duc Hop (13.04H)

B Rgds
Stig
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Old 28th October 2019, 04:15
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

Interesting. To recap the official information from publications using USN data:
- Cunningham's air wing was on an Alpha Strike that morning, so bombs and drop tanks and usual Sidewinder/Sparrow mix. No 20mm cannon pods, which were generally not used by the USN carrier-based F-4Bs, though a more frequent load on USAF and USMC land-based Phantoms.
- Cunningham's F-4B "officially" shot down by SAM en-route to coast after bombing and 3-victories on that day.
- Unlikely that Do Hang killed by 20mm cannon fire from Cunningham (no cannon carried) and wingman was not present during the combat for 3rd (Toom or Do Hang) combat. Accidental fire from other MiG-17s (23mm cannon) or A-7s (20mm cannon) can't be discounted. USN A-7 Corsairs were part of the strike package.
- Cunningham was shot down by a missile strike - thought by the US Navy to be a SA-2 SAM. Though a missile from a MiG can't be discounted, just not noticed by US sources.


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Old 28th October 2019, 11:26
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Col-Tomb toon

Geoff

Presumably Toperczer is quoting some official/semi-official Vietnamese source in this case.
I have no idea how crowded the sky actually was at each given time over NV, but being killed by friendly fire would not be the first time in history. Good point.

If anything goes like a red thread reading about US losses in the air, anywhere, at least since WW 2 is that if there is a fraction of chance to claim either AA-fire or (later) GAM missiles "did it", they do so.

Both Korea and Vietnam are prime examples of how the "chance/coincidence factor" had to be highlighted at all times, while any kind of planned skill from an enemy is downplayed to the maximum. For a top notch pilot, being at the wrong place at exactly the wrong moment (AA-fire/GAM strike) is acceptable, but being shot down in air combat is for some reason not.
The official US view seems to be "we-never-make-any-mistakes-like-that" rather than face different facts.

Cheers
Stig
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