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  #1  
Old 26th October 2006, 11:39
Brian Bines Brian Bines is online now
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Italian ANR losses

In a Modelaid Publication about the ANR it states that 1st. Gruppo lost seven Macchi C205's in operations on 2nd. and 6th. April 1944, with two pilots baling out. Does anyone have details of these losses please, and does the Osprey publication about Italian Aces include ANR operations,
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Brian Bines
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Old 27th October 2006, 00:06
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

The data of the Modelaid work is at least imprecise.

On 2 April 1944, 31 C.205s of 1° Gruppo were involved in an operation in Klagenfurt area. One B-17 was claimed by Ten. Robetto at 10.10 hrs. and one P-38 by M.llo Benati but the only confirmed claim (by the Germans) was the B-17, reportedly shot down in square Pl.Qu. KK. During the combat two C.205s collided, killing Ten. Emilio Marchi, while the second pilot managed to bale out.

According to some sources, the pilot bailing out was S.M. Aroldo Burei, but the documents of the Italian unit stated that Burei was wounded on the combat of 6 April, so its identity cannot be confirmed.

This accounts to two C.205s lost, as confirmed by the "Flugzeugmaterial-Verluste" listing of the Germans for that day.

On 6 April 1944, 33 C.205s were operating in Karlovac area (Croatia) intercepting USAAF formations of B-24s escorted by P-47s. In the ensuing combat one P-47 was claimed by Ten. Bruno Cartosio at 15.45 hrs. (confirmed by the Germans in square Pl.Qu.QL3-6/QM1). The Italians suffered two losses: S. Ten. Remo Lugari, shot down in Fiume area, and M.llo Luigi Morosi, MIA .A third C.205 was lost with the pilot baling out. According to some sources it was Serg. Luigi Gorrini, but the documents of the units report two more pilots wounded in the combat: M.llo Vittorio Pirchio and S.M. Aroldo Burei.

The two wounded does not necessarily imply any losses of aircraft, even more so considering that according to the "Flugzeugmaterial-Verluste" listing only the two C.205s of Lugari and Morosi are accounted for, as "1 Totalverlust" and "1 Vermißt".

At any rate, even considering the loss of the third C.205, the total amount of losses for the two combats is of five aircraft.

Of course, this does not take in consideration the number of aircraft eventually damaged which, so far, are not known.

Concerning the question wheter the Osprey booklet on the Italian aces dealt with ANR operations, I guess that two columns and a half of text cannot certainly be described as an account of any kind although it would be fair to add that this wasn't the aim of the work.

Hope this helps.
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Old 27th October 2006, 11:33
Brian Bines Brian Bines is online now
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Re: Italian ANR losses

Ferdinando many thanks for your speedy and comprehensive reply. I have the Modelaid publication and the book 'Air War Italy 1944-45' but nothing else in English on ANR operations,so your reply was really appreciated,
Regards
Brian
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Old 28th October 2006, 19:03
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

Hello,

Anything known of losses between September 43 and January 44 ?

Alex
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Old 28th October 2006, 22:17
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

There were no ANR units operating until 3 January, 1944, when the 1° Gruppo Caccia effected its first interception. After that date also the Gruppo Aerosiluranti started to operate.

Thus, no ANR data about the earlier period is available, simply because there was nothing to report...
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Old 29th October 2006, 02:41
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

Quote:
Originally Posted by veltro View Post
There were no ANR units operating until 3 January, 1944, when the 1° Gruppo Caccia effected its first interception. After that date also the Gruppo Aerosiluranti started to operate.

Thus, no ANR data about the earlier period is available, simply because there was nothing to report...
Well, there was no combat loss, but they may have been accidents.
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Old 29th October 2006, 03:53
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

During the period October-December 1943 the only reported loss was one S.79 (MM.28203) of Gruppo Aerosiluranti "Buscaglia" crashed near Piacenza on 15 November 1943 during a transfer flight with the death of Ten. Ettore Donati and his crew.

Concerning 1° Gruppo Caccia no losses are reported in that period, mainly because the planes were materially handed over by the Germans on 31 December 1943 only... (cfr. the KTB of Stab./JG 77, translated and published in the excellent site of my friend Nick Beale: http://www.ghostbombers.com/JG77/jg77_02.html).

Concerning eventual other accidents, ending with damages to the aircraft only (and even here, exclusively for Gruppo "Buscaglia", as 1° Gruppo had no planes...), the historical diary of the torpedo-bomber unit has no entries of this kind.

P.S. it is worth remembering here that the ANR had no equivalent to the Luftwaffe Quartermaster loss reports (ObdL Genst. Gen. Qu.6 Abt (1c)) and the only data of this kind can be extracted by diaries, teletype reports and other documents, on a case-by-case basis. A few ANR losses were reported also on the Luftwaffe QM lists of 1945, but these concerned the Bf 109s and by that time the Germans considered the Italian units as operating (in practice, even if not formally) on their behalf and the aircraft "on loan".
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Old 31st October 2006, 20:13
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

Hi,

Thank you for the replies re early period.

So would that mean that the losses if any would be recorded under Luftwaffe losses for that time period .

Alex
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Old 1st November 2006, 03:59
veltro veltro is offline
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Re: Italian ANR losses

That would mean that no other ANR losses took place in that period. Any other aircraft which operated over northern Italy until January 1944 was either German or under German control, except for the ones already reported in the previous replies.

So, in some cases (like the transportation of recovered Italian aircraft to Germany, almost completely done by Italian pilots of the so-called G.T.V. - Gruppo Trasporto Velivoli - which wasn't part of the ANR until May 1944), the data of some accidents and/or losses could appear in the QM returns, but not on a regular and complete basis, AFAIK.

You can certainly understand that in that period there were many "grey" areas, not officially defined and regulated.

A different case was the use of the Macchi C.205 by II./JG 77, whose losses in training accidents are reported in official documents.

Hope this helps.
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