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  #1  
Old 24th March 2005, 21:10
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Exclamation Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Over the years there have been much debate on this subject, as RAF attacked these planes in 1940. It has been said that they were ordered on the grounds that these planes reported about allied ships and so on. Until now there have been no solid evidence to this. But in the KTB from Seenotzentrale Nord a case it reported were the "Seenotflugzeug" did report something like this! Se attached file. It's noted that these aircraft were not reported to the international Red Cross, as were the case with hospitalships!

Junker
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Old 25th March 2005, 00:14
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ju55dk
Over the years there have been much debate on this subject, as RAF attacked these planes in 1940. It has been said that they were ordered on the grounds that these planes reported about allied ships and so on. Until now there have been no solid evidence to this. But in the KTB from Seenotzentrale Nord a case it reported were the "Seenotflugzeug" did report something like this! Se attached file. It's noted that these aircraft were not reported to the international Red Cross, as were the case with hospitalships!

Junker
In the World War II unit history of the US 9th Infantry Division, Eight Stars to Victory, there is a photograph of a captured German half-track that was clearly marked as an ambulance. The rear exit door was opened to display the interior, which was filled with German infantry weapons and ammunition.

Last edited by Six Nifty .50s; 25th March 2005 at 00:21.
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Old 25th March 2005, 01:36
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Ju55dk, the reasons why RAF attacked on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft were British considered those shot down Luftwaffe pilots were still soldiers, and if they were allowed to be resecured, they would have a chance to fight another day, the second reason was that British suspected those Luftwaffe resecured aircrafts were also collecting British convoy information, so the policy of RAF was "Yes, we will do our best to resecure the downed Luftwaffe pilots by ourself, and no, we would not allow you to resecure them"
To be faire, RAF never pained their resecure aircrafts with red cross
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Old 25th March 2005, 02:04
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ju55dk
But in the KTB from Seenotzentrale Nord a case it reported were the "Seenotflugzeug" did report something like this!
Where did you read that in this actual text, I cannot find anything about reporting ship movement, only a remark about encrypted radio messages, nothing about the content of these messages.
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Old 25th March 2005, 08:06
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Also you must look back at that time without the hindsight we have now.

At that time in 1940, the Germans appeared un stoppable and Britain was not only fighting for her survival but also that of our Empire. I would imagine that all the rules of war fall away in that situation.

The red cross in general on the Western Front looks to have been honoured in most cases through the whole war. But as with all wars i am afraid it has never offered 100% protection.

Jon
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Old 25th March 2005, 08:23
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

I do not condem these attacks. I'm merely pointing out that Luftwaffe were in no doubt, that these white painted aircraft, were not protected by the Geneva convention, at that time. Also that at in this incident the pilot violated the terms set up by the Seenotdienst not to report about enemy movements. He was warned about it.


As to the quistion of Roy:
"Von AHIK wurde Funksprüche abgesetzt, die als reine Aufklärungsmeldung gewertet werden müssen".

Junker
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Old 25th March 2005, 12:47
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Missed that line, I was focused on the marked bit. Indeed, I stand corrected, but it still does not really explain WHAT was being reported (*), also since the text mentions the fact of encrypted messages it is not certain that the Brits were able to read into the messages either.

(*Von AHIK wurde Funksprüche abgesetzt, die als reine Aufklärungsmeldung gewertet werden müssen)

Thanks for giving us an opportunity to read this.
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Old 25th March 2005, 13:34
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

When I asked Alfred Grislawski how he reacted when he learned that his friend Ernst Süss had been gunned to death by an American fighter as he hung in his parachute straps, Grislawski answered calmly:

"Es war Krieg, Herr Bergström" - It was war, Mr. Bergström.

Of course a German serviceman who spotted enemy ships would report that. What else? Hide what he had seen and thus enable the enemy to get stronger, which would lead to more of this German guy's fellow countrymen getting killed. Of course he was a German patriot and wanted to save German lives!

And of course the Englishmen understood that - because they acted in the same way. So of course they tried to shoot down those aircraft. Because they were British patriots and wanted to save British lives.

And of course the Germans were very upset because the British shot down their Seenotflugzeuge - that meant that more German pilots would drown in the Channel!

The really terrible thing is war.

And regarding all those accounts which try to pose the "own" side as snow white and which tell us that only the enemy played dirty tricks - that's the hypocrisy which is an organic part of patriotism. Why can't we find any photographs of US troops abusing red cross marked vehicles in US unit histories? Because they are US unit histories. . . I find it rather pathetic to see people pointing out such things and innocently believing that the "own" side never committed such acts of abuse.

To clear any possible misunderstanding, I of course am biased toward the Allied side when it comes to WW II, and I am grateful that the Nazi rule was totally crushed. The extermination camps and the massive scale of deliberate mass executions of people in the conquered territories in the east was a dark spot in Europe's history which ended through the Allied victory. One may say that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in wars conducted by the USA, the UK, France and the USSR after the war, or in political persecutions supported by either of those states, but that pales in comparison with the terrible crimes against humanity committed by the Nazi regime.

Okay, with that said, allow me to state that all countries committed "atrocities" of the kind which are described in this thread, all armies slaughtered POWs and civilians. That's part of war. The dream of a "clean war" is utterly silly and has nothing in common with reality.
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  #9  
Old 25th March 2005, 13:55
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Please do not start another heated endless discussion on the subject clean war or war crimes. It was indeede not my intent! It was merely to show that the Luftwaffe was aware that these white painted red cross aircraft did not fall under the Geneva convention of that time. It is the first time i have seen this in writing from a original source, not the rubbish/rumors that have been written in different books over the years on this subject.

Junker
  #10  
Old 25th March 2005, 14:08
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Re: Attacks on Luftwaffe Red-Cross aircraft!

Junker,

Your intention was well understood, the fact that you have an original document proving that the Luftwaffe Command at the time knew the legal position of their SAR units, regardless of the Berlin propaganda, is most enlightening.

You are also right that this should not turn into the usual "shooting bailing crew" discussion.

Of course having said that, it might be assumed from the document that the Luftwaffe although not legally supported, at least tried to act by the spirit of the Red Cross. Your document only makes the issue more interesting.

Again thank you for uploading the genuine article, nothing beats primary source material.
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