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  #91  
Old 15th January 2020, 14:33
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Craig
I do not recall any of the airmen, Galland, Hartmann, Rudel and others claiming that their log books were confiscated. All claimed that they were robbed or that the logs were stolen. If confiscated, then there should be a reference to such actions anyway, in the Allied records. I do not think anyone cared about such documents, however. Neither man claimed to destroy their logs prior to the capture, either.
If robbed, I would really expect even a single log to surface. I am not sure if any did, and certainly not a one belonging to a famous pilot.
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  #92  
Old 15th January 2020, 14:50
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Gabor,

I do have in my notes 2 claims for Boston's for II./JG52 on this date at Nikovice and Jezkovice (both reportedly near Brno) - unfortunately no names and stupid me forgot to put the reference as to where I got this information from.

Regards,

Craig...
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  #93  
Old 15th January 2020, 14:55
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Thanks Craig, appreciate it...
Gabor
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  #94  
Old 15th January 2020, 15:16
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Quote:
The Hartmann claims that were not mentioned during 1945 in the KBT papers should not be regarded with any hope of being accurate, in fact most could be weeks or a month wrong in there date, and type could also be incorrect.
Johannes

I couldn’t agree more but I would also extend this back to late October 1944

I went through the files Russell mentioned and came up with some interesting points from looking at the Daily Reports, which I’ve extracted some of the data focusing on Hartmann’s claims

27.10.44 – 5 claims including 3 over own airfield
5 claims on microfilm – 4xJG52 (incl only 1 to Hartmann (304), 1xI./SG10
Total 5 claims match - all accountered for

The 2nd claim for Hartmann on 27.10.44 (Il-2) that is mentioned in Barbas II./JG52 work but not in the claims film – could not have happened on this date.

01.11.44 – 17 claims for 6 lost - Maj Barkhorn 274 Hptm Hartmann 306 Ltn Duttmann 5 claims to 123 Rudel 355-360 Pz Absch
13 claims on microfilm - 12xII./JG 52 (incl Hartmann 306) & 1xSG2 – plus Barkhorn 274 and Dauttmann 5th – Total 15 claims – 2 missing

This claim is missing in Barbas II./JG52 history but is in the claims film – film correct claim number 306
Note that neither Barkhorns (274) of Duttmanns 5th are in the claims film!

07.11.44 – missing ??
- 3 claims on microfilm 2xJG52 (incl Hartmann(307)) 1xI./SG10

13.11.44 - 19 claims for 5 lost
12 claims in microfilms - 11xII./JG52 (incl Harmann 308 – 311) & 1xII./SG 2 – 7 missing

14.11.44 - 7 claims for 0 loss
5 on microfilms - 5xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 312-313) – 2 missing

16.11.44 - 28 claims 6 Badly damaged for 4 lost
14 on microfilm - 11xII./JG52 (incl 2xHartmann 314-315), 1xI./JG 53, 1xSG2 & 1xII./SG10 -additional 3 for Barkhorn – total 17 – 11 missing

17.11.44 – 15 claims 1 lost
9 on microfilm - 8xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 316), 1xII./SG10 – 6 missing

21.11.44 – missing
no claims in microfilm (Johannes has a claim for Hartmann on this date but cannot be verified)

22.11.44 – 6 claims
5 claims on microfilm – 2xII./JG 52 (Hartmann 317 & 318) , 2xII./SG 10, & 1xNAGr14 (not sure if this one is in the AO?) – 1 claim missing – most lists have 4 additional claims to Hartmann on this date but this is highly unlikely – not in microfilms and doesn’t add up – likely wrong date (22.12.44?).

23.11.44 – 6 claims, 2 lost –
6 claims on microfilm – 6xII./JG 52 – all claims accountered for - none to Hartmann – additional in various works for 5 Hartmann claims & 2 Barkhorn claims could not have occurred on this date (maybe 23.12.44?)

24.11.44 – Bad Weather
– Johannes list has additional 4 claims for Hartmann on this date (not in Barbas II./JG52 work) –incorrect date (poss 24.12.44?)

05.12.44 – 20 claims 4 lost
11 claims on microfilm – 10xII./JG52 (2 x Hartmann 319? – 320?) & 1xI./SG2 – 9 missing

09.12.44 – 4 claims 0 loss –
4 claims on microfilm – 3x II./JG52 (incl 2 for Hartmann 321?-322?) & 1xIII./SG10 - all accountered for

21.12.44 – Missing ??
Note II./JG52 claims on microfilm ends on 21 Dec 1944 – 3 claims on microfilm 2xII./JG52 and 1xI./JG53

22.12.44 – 19 claims, 10 badly damaged - 2 lost
– 5 claims on microfilm – 5x I./JG53 – 4 additional claims II./JG 52 (2x Sturm, 1x Lipfert, 1xEwald) – 10 missing

23.12.44 – 8 claims, 2 badly damaged 6 lost (Hartmann 328)
– 3 claims in microfilms –3x III./SG 10 – 2 additional claims II./JG52 (Lipfert & Hartmann 328) - 3 missing

Hartmann claim no.328 this date – therefore claims 323,324,325,326 & 327 missing – suspect that the claims in November 21, 22, 23 and 24 should be for December likely 21, 22, 23 (after claims in the microfilm ended for II./JG 52)

24.12.44 – 19 clains 2 without witnesses, 2 badly damaged, - 6 lost (Hartmann 3 to 331)
10 claims –9xI./JG53 & 1x I./SG10 – additional claims 4xII./JG 52, (Lipfert & Hartmann 329 – 331) – 5 missing

25.12.44 – 23 claims, 2 without witness, 2 badly damaged (Hartman 5 332- 336, Barkhorn 4 to 289)
8 clamis in microfilms –6xI./JG53 & 2x I./SG10 – additional claims 11xII./JG52 (2xLipfert, 4xBarkhorn. 5xHartmann (332-336)) – 4 missing

The dates in between are mostly bad weather (no activity) and several reports are missing. Though claims were reported on 02.11.44 (5), 26.11.44 (6), 08.12.44 (13), 11.11.44 (14), 12.12.44(1), 20.12.44(11),

also 29.12.44 – 0 Absch 0 Verl
- no claims in microfilm - Additional 2 claims for Barkhorn on this day appear incorrect (possibly extra 2 on for 25.12.44)

Also, I suspect some of the missing claims mentioned may be for Hungarian claims which I do not have – maybe Gabor can supply dates,

For Hartmanns claims in 1945
337 - 04.02.45 – in wingman Sommavilla account (Check Flugbuch)
338 & 339 – suggested date 20.02.45 – has not been confirmed by first hand information
340 & 341 – 06.03.45 in KTB
342 & 343 – 07.03.45 in KTB

344 – suggested date 09.03.45
345 – suggested date 11.03.45
346 – suggested date unkown 03.45
347 – suggested date 16.03.45
348 - suggested date 10.04.45
349 – 11.04.45 in KTB
350 – 17.04.45 in KTB

351 – suggested date 25.04.45
352 – 08.05.45 Tolliver/Constable (Hartmann) account

I reluctantly added the last but still I’m not convinced.

My argument all along is how sure are we of the base data when comparing claims.

Regards,

Craig..
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  #95  
Old 15th January 2020, 15:43
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Franek,

You may be right for some Logbooks, for Hartmann it's either destroyed, the Americans got it or the Russians got it - There is no way I can see him having it after 10 years in prison.

Also, I wasn't really talking about confiscation, souvenir hunting appeared to be fair game except for items that could be used for intelligence which is usually handed over to an officer - the officer goes this looks interesting - the wars over - I might just keep this. Most infantry soldiers I know would go - this will make good toilet paper!

Unfortunately time catches up and the older generation move on. Their children find these things in the attic, don't see any value and dump into the bin - some may pass to museums etc or sell at a pawn shop (Rudel's Ehrenpokal apparently turned up in a pawn shop in America several years ago)

Anyway, all I'm saying is we live in hope?

Regards,

Craig..
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  #96  
Old 16th January 2020, 04:10
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I think Hans-Ulrich Rudel's (Stab./SG 2) 355-360 Pz Absch on November 1, 1944 can be confirmed - at least partially. Records say, that 2 Ukr. Front, 2 Guards Mech. Corps, 37 Guards-Tank Brigade lost 6 burned (incl. Gv.Ml.Lt. Afanasii Ivanovich Terenin's), and 1 KOd T-34/85 tanks at Lajosmizse-E, around Bartal farm at Budapest-SE. 4 GvMK, 352 GvTSAP lost Ford-6 Willys truck (No.'52').

In a few days, the following T-34/85s were repaired in 37 GvTBr, - probably including that KOd tank on November 1st:

C 105
C 113
C 114
C 129
C 132
C 134


Other repairs in 2 GvMK:

24 Guards-Tank Regiment: T-34/85, chassis No.: 4060938
251 Guards Self-prop. Art. Reg.: SU-85, chassis No.: 405170

On German side s.Pz.Abt 503 lost Kingtiger (Tiger B) '200' (Obltn. Brodhagen, KIA) on November 1, 1944 in the very same area.

Gabor
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  #97  
Old 16th January 2020, 11:38
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Guys

Regarding the end of the microfilm entries. You would think that they all end abruptly like JG5's entries, but I did compare them to abschüßeliste and found with some units like JG52 some days are missing in November/December 1944, and using the old Hartmann list some claims for some days, but I doubt if Hartmann's list in actually very accurate for 1945, his pre mikrofilms 1944 list differs quite a bit for a start, therefor I would actually expect his 1945 list to be no more accurate than his 1945 list.
constable/Tolliver also make like of Hartmann's seventy Il-2 claims, this is factually very far from the truth, in fact it was rare for Hartmann to claim anything other than Russian fighters.

JG5 were ordered to destroy their flugbucher by their Kommandeur, and in general the most likely way a flugbuch would survive is if the pilot was not on combat duty at the end of the war.

Kind regards

Johannes
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  #98  
Old 16th January 2020, 13:18
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Craig
I do not think Rudel carried his cup on the frontline. I guess it was captured or looted elsewhere, possibly in one of the bases in Germany. I do not think log books would make a good toilet paper for very practical reasons.
Anyway, Johannes provided a credible version of logs being destroyed on order. Had they been destroyed on order, lost in a lorry with other paperwork of the unit or whatever, it would sound credible. I can imagine, that the log books were confiscated and then destroyed as of no significant intelligence value, but I would expect that related paperwork should exist. But the claim that logs were stolen, and nothing surfaced over the years does not seem likely to me. I can imagine some were lost over the years, but not all of them.
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  #99  
Old 17th January 2020, 01:36
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Hi Folks,
Some info on the dogfights of the very busy day of November 17, 1944 in order to clarify claims and victories. Verified soviet losses in dogfights:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M, S/N: 2715306, white ‘06’. Pilot, Lt. Venyamin Mihailovich Boltishev was KIA. At 8:50 local at 400 m, 6 Yaks, led by Gugnin were returning from a mission when they met 2 ‘Fw 190’s, performing frontal attack. Boltishev pulled up, rolled over and after a few spins crashed into the ground.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M, S/N: 2615394, white ‘94’, lost in the Szolnok area. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Victor Nikolajevich Gaponov was MIA. (See pic.) Between 12:50-14:00 local, 6 Yak-1s and Yak-9s (Yak-1Bs: Drozzhikov ‘22’, Erko ‘8’, Kostenko ‘45’, Pugin ‘5’, Yak-9s: Stadnih ‘90’, Gaponov ‘94’) were escorting 6 IL-2s of the 90 GvShAP to Gyöngyös. On the way home, at 700 m, the 2 Yak-9s stayed with the IL-2s, the 4 Yak-1Bs formed an attack group. Near Szolnok, Gaponov fell behind his formation and went missing. Cause was unknown, visibility was good, 3-5 km. Plane came into the group on August 18, 1944. Recent attempt to find the pilot and his plane at his family’s request was unfortunately unsuccessful.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 02162, lost at Hort. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Sergei Grigorievich Purgin was MIA. At 12:50 local, 8 Yaks, led by Babiy were escorting 8 IL-2 of the 451 ShAP to the Gyöngyös area. At Hatvan-NE, at 800 m, combat with 8 Bf 109. Ragulin downed a Bf 109, which fell at Gyöngyös-SW, 4 km. Purgin was shot down after being chased by Hptm. Helmut Lipfert at Hort as a 'Yak-7'.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, 2nd Sq., Yak-1B, S/N: 37191, white '<37', lost at 15:00 local at Kóka-E, 3-4 km. Pilot, Ml.Lt. Vladimir Petrovich Isupov (from 19 ZAP) bailed out and returned on the 19th. 8+4 Yaks vs. 4 Fw 190, 2 Bf 109. 1 Bf 109 downed by Stepanov.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 151 GvIAP, Yak-1B, S/N: 17193, lost in the Dány-Tura area. Pilot, Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Vasilevich Noskov was MIA. At 9:40-10:50 local, 6 Yaks, led by Hlyustov from Kecskemét airfield were covering ground troops in the Pusztamonostor-Dány-Kóka area at 3500-4000 m. Noskov with a sudden turn left Hlyustov and disappeared. Believed to be shot down by enemy fighters.

During the day several fighter attacks on 4 GvShAD IL-2, and their escorting Yak formations without losses, some of these might be overclaimed:

Mission between 07:50-09:10 local, at 600 m, 8 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Capt. Nikolaev were attacked by 4 Fw 190s without any losses in the Hort area. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP.

Mission between 07:58-09:18 local, 8 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 92 GvShAP, led by Gv.Capt. Yakurnov were attacked by 6 Fw 190s without any losses. One Fw 190 was shot down over Hort. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP.

Mission between 10:20-11:40 local, at 1200 m in the Csány area, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Gv.Maj. Kuzin were attacked by 8 Fw 190s. One Fw 190 was shot down over Hort. IL-2 of Kurilov was shot down. Fighter escort was 6 Yaks of the 122 IAP: The 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP lost 2 IL-2s this day (S/N: 10392, 1872699) At 11:05 local, IL-2m3 was shot down by fighters at Jászárokszállás-N, 3 km. Pilot, Ivan Prokofevich Kurilov was fatally wounded, died in 2 hrs after landing. Gunner, Ananev returned to his unit on November 20, 1944, plane burned. The other plane, with the wounded Ivlev-Petrunin crew was downed at Jászladány-SW, 2 km at the same time. They also returned to their unit.

At 12:05 local at 1200 m, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Gv.Capt. Lyadskii were attacked by 2 Fw 190s without any losses. Fighter escort was 5 Yaks of the 122 IAP.

At 14:20-15:30 local, 6 IL-2s of 5 VA, 4 GvShAD, 90 GvShAP, led by Capt. Nikolaev, attacking trucks in the Lőrinci area were attacked by 4 Fw 190s without any losses. Fighter escort was 4 Yaks of the 513 IAP.

Even IL-2m3 of Gv.Capt. Georgii Timofeevich Beregovoy (HSU, later famous soviet cosmonaut, commander of Soyuz-3 in 1968) was damaged, but NOT lost in the Hatvan area.

5 VA, 12 GvShAD, 188 GvShAP, IL-2m3, S/N: 10956, lost at Gyöngyös-W, 8 km. At 13:45 local, 6+5 IL-2s, escorted by 4 La-5s of 192 IAP in the Gyöngyös-NW area were attacked by 2 Bf 109 and 2 Fw 190. Plane shot down at 80 m. Crew of Gv.Ml.Lt. Genadii Semenovich Turikov and Ivan Ivanovich Ostapenko was KIA.

17 VA, 262 NBAD, 97 GvNBAP, Po-2 biplane, S/N: 7352, lost at Felsőszentiván-SE - Tataháza. Pilot, reg.commander Gv.Lt. Col. Anatolii Vasilevich Styazhkov and Gv.Capt. Vladimir Nikiforovich Strik, reg. navigator was unhurt. Plane crashlanded and burned. Downed by Oblt. Walter Pohl (1./SG 10)

Barkhorn's La-5 claim had to be an overclaim, as there was no such loss on soviet side. He might have damaged a La-5 from 5 VA, 279 IAD, which had a terrible mistake that day: in 'friendly fire' they downed several Rumanian Ju 87D Stukas in the Tószeg-Szolnok area, including:

Rumanian AF, 8 Gropul Asalt., 74 Sq., Ju 87D-5, W.Nr.: 141379, lost between Tószeg-Jászkarajenő. Crew of pilot adj. av. Victor Zizda and gunner, Constantin Pietraru was KIA.

(The Boston losses and Hartmann’s Boston overclaim was previously discussed.)

Gabor
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File Type: jpg 122 IAP Gaponov MIA 17.11.1944.jpg (42.8 KB, 11 views)
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  #100  
Old 17th January 2020, 06:06
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Gabor

I think there is a possibility that Barkhorn mis-identified his victim. By the Grid Reference, I get is claim location at about 2km South of Kóka – which is on the edge of the AO of where Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Vasilevich Noskov went missing (Pusztamonostor-Dány-Kóka). The time of 10.23 also fits in with the local timeframe of 09.40 – 10.50. Aircraft identification was awful on both sides – the only reliable thing is that it’s a single engine aircraft – Though, from memory I did see once where a two-engined Manchester was misidentified for a four-engined Lancaster – or was it the other way around? Cannot exactly remember.

Also, I note that 5 of the 9 known claims match reasonably well (Lipfert x 3, Barkhorn, & Pohl) – with Barkhorn’s other claim mentioned above, that leaves Hartmann and 2 x Ewald claims – no sense talking about Hartmann’s claim – no new information to change that situation.

As for Ewald’s 1st claim for a Yak-9 at 08.36 this could possibly be another mis-identification but by the Russians (2xFw190’s? could be 2x Me109’s) – the time (is within reason) and type match but no location – from the grid reference it appears Ewalds claim was at ~3km N of Jászágó. There is no location mentioned for the loss of the Yak-9. Does the loss information mention a location?

For Ewald’s second claim – Il-2m.H at 11.06, - same time as Lipfert’s claims but further to the north (not an exact match to the losses) thus I can see why these were credited to Lipfert – could this possibly be the damaged Il-2m.H of Gv.Capt. Georgii Timofeevich Beregovoy – no detail of this (Time/location) is given to match against?

Finally, I’m still wandering about the 15 claims mentioned in the daily report – with 9 claims in the claims microfilm, what of the remaining six? Some possibilities are:

- Claims not confirmed thus not in the claims microfilm?
- Claims by Ground Assault pilots – There seems to be a lot of FW190 activity that suggest SG units – which there is little in the claim’s microfilms for SG units.
- Claims by Hungarian pilots (like the claim for the Boston in the Hartmann issue)?

Do you have the Hungarian claims for this day?

Overall, not a bad matchup considering.

Regards,

Craig…
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Last edited by Kapper; 17th January 2020 at 09:59. Reason: wrong type
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