P-51 Mustang & A-36 Apache

[knusel]

Some say the Mustang was the top-scoring aircraft type of the Allies. But I think the Spitfire, maybe also the Yak-9 and/or the Yak-1, might have claimed more.

[drgondog]

The last update that I downloaded from USAFHRC was matched by Dr Frank Olynyk's list save AVG which is not included in the USAFHRC totals.

The total Mustang (P-51-NA, A-36, P-51A, P-51B/D) for AAF is 5949. Frank was collaborating with Christopher Shores ad several others to compile 366 Mustang I/IA/III/IV by RAF/Commowealth for total 6315 all theatres.

[knusel]

Hello drgondog,

hope you had a good Xmas Eve.
Thanks for the figures. So far, I had 5944 USAAF kills for the Mustang (5666 P51, 209 F-6 and 69 A-36). Which of your subtype scores differs by 4?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by knusel

Hello drgondog,

hope you had a good Xmas Eve.
Thanks for the figures. So far, I had 5944 USAAF kills for the Mustang (5666 P51, 209 F-6 and 69 A-36). Which of your subtype scores differs by 4?

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Michael

Michael - I separated mine by Merlin F6 vs Allison F6 and the transition from P-51, P-51A to P-51B/C F6B/C in ETO is as yet unclear in Q1 through Q3 1944. As of today, without going to source files to differentiate Allison Mustang VCs in ETO & MTO. To answer your question, I would first ask whether your source ties back to Olynyk/USAFHRC?

How have you differentiated F-6/F-6A from P-51A/F-6B?

As an aside, I had to do a deep dive on USAF 85 to plow through the transistion from MTO to ET0 in the Beaufighter to P-61 transition for other categories



Can you break out by theatre?

I agree 69 for A-36. I have 54 F-6 and P-51A with at least 26 to F-6A but there is an overlap of VC's with 118TRS. I'm uncertain whether the 23rd FG acquired the 118TRS intact with new F-6C or had some P-51A converted to F-6B. ( I attributed all Mustang VCs after July 1944 to Merlin column pending more digging into 118TRS reporting).



So
Allison P-51/F-6/A-36 is ETO (0) temporarily until I can sort out dates of transition in ETO, 73 (MTO), 54 (CBI), Pacific (0). The issue is that 67th and 10th flew with mixed F6B/F6C in Q1/Q2 and possibly Q3/1944. Throw the 68th TRG transition from MTO (where they flew mixed F6/F6A and transition to F6C). If you attribute ALL 10th, 67th and 68th TRG VCs to your category "F-6", I would have 129 as a first pass - but that is not a good assumption.

Your F6 number of 209 has to include F-6D in Pacific.

A-36 (2) & P-51A (52) CBI but I have not tried to sort F-6D from P-51D in Pacific.

So By Theatre - Total Mustang (AAF) - all types
ETO (4241), MTO (1062), CBI (347), Pacific (299)

Maybe send me a parsed Theatre by Threatre total?

[knusel]

Good evening drgondog,

so far, I separated the P-51 from the F-6 (camera) and the A-36 (dive brakes) only.
By WW2 theatre I have similar but not identical figures:

• Total Mustang, all types (AAF): ETO (4239), MTO (1063), CBI (345), PTO (297)
• Total P-51 (AAF): ETO (4053), MTO (991), CBI (343), PTO (279)
• Total F-6 (AAF): ETO (186), MTO (5), CBI (0), PTO (18)
• Total A-36 (AAF): ETO (0), MTO (67), CBI (2), PTO (0)

source: list compiled by Robert Allen, provided by Alfred Monzat.

Cheers,

Michael

[drgondog]

Ok - differences:US
ETO (4241 vs 4239), MTO (1062 vs 1063), CBI (347 vs 345), (299 vs 297)
RAF ETO (332), MTO (34)

Sources USAFHRC and Frank Olynyk

The RAF Mustang VCs are WIP between Olynyk and Shores.

Question - do any of your F6 for Pacific include Allison types?

[drgondog]

BTW - the A-36 was always Mustang (officially). The P-51-1-NA was briefly named by AAF Public Relations as Apache.

The telex from Dutch Kindelberger to AAFPRO of July 13, 1942 requested that AAF designate all NAA Pursuit of that type "Mustang". AAF complied and later in 1944 issued a complete list of official names of all AAF aircraft and the A-36 Mustang was on the list with every other P-51.

FWIIW, the prototype A-36 was modified from NA-83 AM 118 Mustang. It was less of a possible model change than the XP-51B (XP-78) vs NA-73 through NA-99.

[knusel]

Hello drgondog,

I have to admit I'm not very proficient in technical details. I also do not know all of the abbreviations that you use. Keep in mind I'm not a mothertongue speaker. My breakdown of F-6 kills does not include any comments about the engine but I have acquired "Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces of the Pacific and CBI" by John Stanaway, which I will read one day.

I wish you a good start into a happy new year 2024,

Michael

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by knusel

Hello drgondog,

I have to admit I'm not very proficient in technical details. I also do not know all of the abbreviations that you use. Keep in mind I'm not a mothertongue speaker. My breakdown of F-6 kills does not include any comments about the engine but I have acquired "Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces of the Pacific and CBI" by John Stanaway, which I will read one day.

I wish you a good start into a happy new year 2024,

Michael

Hi Michael -

NA-91 = P-51-NA and Mustang IA. Most converted to recon, originally named Apache by Army but corrected and agreed by Kindelberger CO of North American. As recon is was designated F-6,
NA-97 = A-36 Mustang
NA-99 = P-51A and F-6A and Mustang II

All Allison powered

[knusel]

Hello drgondog,

thanks for the info. So these are the Allison-engined versions. I think the available claim breakdowns do not make a dinstinction between Allison and Merlin but I'll keep my eyes open.

I wish you a good weekend,

Michael