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Old 3rd February 2022, 13:00
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

I will try to do the same work as the one done for October 22 for the whole of me.

I want to apologize because I deal with the day in disorder to follow the progress of my work on the Normandie-Niemen.

Today we are going to look at October 23.

This day the JG52 claims 8 victories, 7 Lagg and 1 Il-2 in the sector of gumbinnen.




This day the 1st VA (Air Force) loses 11 planes of which 7 (6 IL-2 and 1 Yak-9) are shot down by the Flak and 4 are reported missing (4 Il-2)

1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m.
331 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 12:45 p.m. to 6 p.m.
182 ShAD has 2 Il-2s shot down by Flak + 1 missing. The flight division from 2:40 p.m. - 6 p.m.
The 64th ShAP carried out a bombardment mission from 2 p.m. to 2:40 p.m. of the Gross Trakehenen sector protected by Lagg-5s of the 805 IAP
For the 397th ShAP: no information
For the 539th ShAP: no information, but protected by the Lagg of the 805th IAP.
277th ShAD two 2 Il-2 shot down 1 missing

The 130th IAD had a 1 Yak-9 shot down by the Flak.

The 129th IAD protect IL-2 of the 182nd ShAD and 277th ShAD. 1 combat without victory or loss between Lagg (805 IAP) and German planes (425 cartridges of SchVAK used).
790 IAP = no information.
805 IAP = 1 combat between 2 la-5 and two Me 109 without result. The time is not specified in the regiment's report.
863 IAP = no information.

- 303 IAD => 12 la5 and 8 La7 of the 523rd IAP fly during the day. 1 fight has binds in the day.

from 4:30 p.m. to 5:20 p.m. two La7s encounter two Me-109s near Gumbinnen and the attacks one Me 109 is shot down and crashes 4 km SE of the town.



this fight matches that claim :


Wilhelm Batz of the Stab III./JG 52 shooted down a LaGG at4000m at 14:39 in the sector 25389.

this victory is not confirmed by the Soviet archives


The Soviet sources available to me do not allow me to identify the other battles that led to German claims. However, the lack of loss of Lagg-5 and Lagg-7 during the day suggests that all of JG52's victories come under Overclaiming.

Last edited by Courtois Laurent; 3rd February 2022 at 19:07.
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Old 3rd February 2022, 17:57
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Greetings,
On October 22, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD had the following four permanent Il-2m3 Sturmovik losses:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875299 (Shatapin)

75 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1878692 (Popov)
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877998 (Abramov)

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875292 (Kozin) - at landing.

Cheers,
Gabor
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Old 3rd February 2022, 19:12
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Greetings,
On October 22, 1944 the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD had the following four permanent Il-2m3 Sturmovik losses:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875299 (Shatapin)

75 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1878692 (Popov)
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877998 (Abramov)

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1875292 (Kozin) - at landing.

Cheers,
Gabor
Hello Gabor,

Thans for your answer, thanks to it , i have seen, i have wrote 22 instead 23. I had already discussed October 22 here : http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=61464
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Old 3rd February 2022, 19:27
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

I am sorry, then here are the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD losses for October 23, 1944:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877699 (Malinovskii) - combat loss
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 18826114 (Kolotoets) - combat loss

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1874588 (Emelyanov) - at landing

136 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1870596 (Lutin) - at landing

Gabor
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Old 3rd February 2022, 19:31
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtois Laurent View Post

this fight matches that claim :
Wilhelm Batz of the Stab III./JG 52 shooted down a LaGG at4000m at 14:39 in the sector 25389.
this victory is not confirmed by the Soviet archives
The Soviet sources available to me do not allow me to identify the other battles that led to German claims. However, the lack of loss of Lagg-5 and Lagg-7 during the day suggests that all of JG52's victories come under Overclaiming.
As far as I can see from JG 52 sources and Johannes Matthews, Batz did not claim anything on Oct 22nd.
The only unit of JG 52 that claimed that day was II Gruppe and I don't think they were in Poland/East Prussia but rather defending Hungary.
Bernd Barbas put them at Taktakenéz.
What is your sources regarding this unknown claim by Batz and other JG 52 claims in "your area"?

With regard to II./JG 52s activities in the defense of Hungary I am sure our knowledgeable Gabor knows basically everything.
Understandably he probably like us to buy his forthcoming book and does not want to go into details here
I will buy his books anyway though!!
Cheers
Stig
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Old 3rd February 2022, 19:35
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Smile Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Thank you Stig, the book is in the final phase, lots of work going on with the editor and the typesetter. I hope it will be available in early March. Just a little more patience... ;-)
Thanks,
Gabor
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Old 3rd February 2022, 20:58
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Thank you Stig, the book is in the final phase, lots of work going on with the editor and the typesetter. I hope it will be available in early March. Just a little more patience... ;-)
Thanks,
Gabor
You bet I can wait Gabor!!

Cheers
Stig
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Old 4th February 2022, 09:11
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
I am sorry, then here are the 1 VA, 1 GvShAD losses for October 23, 1944:

74 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1877699 (Malinovskii) - combat loss
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 18826114 (Kolotoets) - combat loss

76 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1874588 (Emelyanov) - at landing

136 GvShAP:
Il-2m3 Sturmovik, c/n: 1870596 (Lutin) - at landing

Gabor
Hello Gabor,

You are right, but as it was IL-2 hit by Flak and I was looking for lagg5, I did not go into detail. I limited myself to this:
1 Gv ShAD (Sturmovik Division) has two 2 il-2s shot down by Flak. The flight division from 12:50 p.m. to 6 p.m.
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Old 4th February 2022, 09:54
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
As far as I can see from JG 52 sources and Johannes Matthews, Batz did not claim anything on Oct 22nd.
The only unit of JG 52 that claimed that day was II Gruppe and I don't think they were in Poland/East Prussia but rather defending Hungary.
Bernd Barbas put them at Taktakenéz.
What is your sources regarding this unknown claim by Batz and other JG 52 claims in "your area"?

Hello Stig Jarlevik,

We are spoken about the 23th october, the 22th is an other tread. For the 23, i tried to work from Tony WOOD's list of which I am attaching an extract below





In my mind the III/JG52 was based in :

10.44 - 10.44 Lobellen Bf 109G
10.44 - 11.44Jürgenfelde Bf 109G

Them it's seam to me that Batz claimed victory in East Prussia.
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Old 4th February 2022, 15:26
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identifications of German victories over East Prussia in October 1944

Ahh

It seems e-mails overlap here.
I took an interest in the subject because Gabor stated some real losses (I am interested in Soviet aircraft where
their production numbers are mentioned).
After pressing enter I got an immediate automatic reply and never checked anything above that so I never saw
dates etc had been changed.

Sorry about that.
Thanks Gabor for the Il-2 losses for the 23rd as well!!

Cheers
Stig
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