Fritz Karch first victories

[focusfocus]

Hello

Someone knows when he claims his first "abschusse".

According to Obermaier/Hoffman
28/11/42=1 spit

According to J-Y Lorant/J-B Frappé
28/11/42=1 spit

29/11/42=1 spit

01/12/42=1 spit

But absolutely nothing in MAV Vol.3.....so?

Michel

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Michel

According to The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa by Arthy and Jessen he claimed his first victory on 28 November 1942 at 11:30 north of Vittorio against a Spitfire fighter of 185 Sqn, RAF (which apparently suffered no losses in the engagement). I hope this helps.

Horrido!

Leo

[Rottler]

Hello Michel,

in JFV Vol. 8/I and 11/I are listed the following first three victories of Lt Fritz Karch 6./JG 2:
25 Nov 1942 Spitfire north of Vittorio
30 Nov 1942 Blenheim northeast of Bone
15 Feb 1943 P-38 west of Djebel Bou Dabous.

Regards
Leo

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Leo (!)

I generally use the victory lists included in the various Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 volumes but I must say that I have seen quite some difference between that included in this series for II./JG 2 in North Africa and others such as Matthews, Wood and Guest which generally agree with each other... Very strange!

Horrido!

Leo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michel

It is easier if you quote in full the books you give details from. Stating only authors, who has published multiple titles, don't give us much to go on.

Checking Mathews and his Luftwaffe Aces Vol 2 he states the first two claims by Karch was on 17 and 18 Jan 1943. They are both in MAW Vol 3 pages 260 and 261.

The claims previously assigned to Karch on 25 and 30 Nov 1942 are now assigned to other pilots.

It seems Winfried Bock (if I am correct) who supplies the German claims/losses to MAW has changed his mind and is on line with Johannes researches in this case. Since Herrn Bock also helps out with the JFV volumes, I can only assume it happened post publishing of their Vol 8/I and 11/I as quoted by Leo. I have not checked if any corrections has been published in later volumes. As Johannes has stated multiple times the names of a large number of claims are close to impossible to read, so a very good knowledge is required to interpret the microfilms and, no doubt many times, also require so called educated guesses. Also endless hours of tiring work interpreting these claims can also wear down even the toughest researcher!

The latter works for all of our Ace researchers. Hats off any day in the week to all of them.

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Backing-up Stig's reply. Jochen Prien's claims from the mikrofilms are the work of Herr Boch/Bock by memory, they are almost 100% accurate, however with his Afrikan 6./JG 2(only) list there is a big problem, in my opinion Herr Boch/Bock had a mis-sort using excel, all the details are basically correct, but with one difference, and that would be the pilots names, they ALL sorted wrongly.

Microfilms show no claims for Karch during 1942 at all, they start abruptly in 1943:-

17th January 1943 Spitfire 10km west of Kior 1650 hrs Nr.1
18th January 1943 Spitfire 15km west of Abiod 0816 hrs Nr.2
15th February 1943 P-38 west of Bon Dahouse 1525 hrs Nr.3
16th May 1943 P-38 1300 hrs Nr.4
26th June 1943 Spitfire 20km NW Le Havre 1758 hrs Nr,5 & B-17 at Gartieru airstrip 1830 hrs Nr.6
4th July 1943 B-17(HSS) La Conlonche 1250 hrs Nr.7
10th July 1943 B-17 15km NW Evreux 0812 hrs Nr.8
14th July 1943 B-17 12km East of Evreux 0755 hrs Nr.9
30th July 1943 B-17(HSS) 1056 hrs Nr.10
12th August 1943 B-17 15km East of Moll 0840 hrs Nr.11
19th August 1943 Spitfire 4km South of Abbeville 1440 hrs Nr.12
19th September 1943 Spitfire 20km NW Wissant 1835hrs Nr.13
26th November 1943 B-17 Paris area 1040 hrs Nr.14
30th December 1943 B-17 Crepy-en-Valois 1350 hrs Nr.15
14th January 1944 P-38 off Morlaix 1510 hrs Nr.16
6th March 1944 B-24 1530 hrs Nr.17
31st July 1944 P-47 Mortague area 1500 hrs Nr.18
7th October 1944 P-47 NE Hachenberg 1932 hrs Nr.19
20th October 1944 P-47 East Cologne/Bonn 1538 hrs Nr.20

After this possibly two P-47's during December 1944(mikrofilms ceased for 6./JG2 by this date), and a P-51 on 28th January 1945.

If your looking for a big total, basically there isn't one, the total of forty-seven often quoted for his is in my personal opinion his total points using the points system i.e "viermots" are three points. Though there is no reason why he couldn't have claimed other aircraft in the last months of the war.
JG2 is now notorious for over-claiming, though not every pilot with this Geschwader was dis-honest, but somebody can probably enlighting you as to how Karch was.

Kind Regards

Johannes

JG2

[focusfocus]

Thank you very much to all

Still remains for me,the difficulty of understanding some strange things.

Michel

[Chris Goss]

I am afraid that after 70+ years, the fog of war gets foggier