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  #1  
Old 3rd September 2015, 11:31
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oquaig oquaig is offline
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Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

The Luftwaffe used the "X Gerat" and likely the"knickebein" guidance system when attacking Moscow in 1941. But did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming them ?

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Old 3rd September 2015, 12:07
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

It was impossible, their level of technic was then far, far low of British.

Soviet radars were just created, but whole system had very low technical standards and scientc knowledge. Many fighters (like MiG-3, Jak-1, ŁaGG-3) did have even own radios). Even in 1944 it was impossible too.

Instead of jamming were very heavy rings of A/A defence around Moscow, much more stronger as over Britain. It was Soviet strong advantage, plus a few hundreds fighters of PVO.

regards,
mw
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Old 7th September 2015, 19:30
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Mirek, you are not quite right.
Radars in Russian air defenses were already in 1941 around Moscow. When already in the first air RAID by the Luftwaffe (22 Jule 1941) at a distance of 100 kilometers was detected radar.
Although radar system around Moscow was completed in the beginning of 1942. Since that time, has already mentioned the broken or attacked by a German reconnaissance aircraft (with the help of guidance by radio to the air defense fighters) that were tracked by the radar stations. Moreover, part the radar stations were manned by British radars, which were delivered from the UK since the autumn of 1941.
Also the Russians had a lot of acoustic radars and posts early detection of air attacks (VNOS-posts).
Radio transmitters were not enough front-line fighters, but the fighters of the air defense they were.
regards,
Kirill
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Old 8th September 2015, 16:04
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Kirche the point is jamming but not detecting. Tjis is two different things

Soviet had own radar instalation just during "Winter War" around Leningrad, in 1941 the same "radars" (there were 2 devices) were installed to defence Murmańsk and Moscow too plus other most important targets (if iam right Sevastopol?).

There were some sources of "radar war" in Russia, fact. I have not say that Russian did have anthing, but I have said, that they could not jamming German planes during night attack on Moscow in 1941. And sustain this.

Anyway around the Moscow PVO zone were gathered the strongest power of Soviet's PVO - fighters, artilery ect. Stronger then in Berlin or London zone of A/A.

regrads,
mw
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Old 8th September 2015, 18:03
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Mirek,
I realized that jamming and detection is different. Probably I incorrectly said (I do not speak English).
I was talking about the second paragraph of your message. The Russians lagged behind in the field of "jamming", but the radar and the science of them were at a high level.
"Radar jamming" in 1941 there was none.
The Germans were the first in the "radar jamming" - only in early 1942. American "Сarpet" appeared in the autumn of 1943. The task of "jamming" in the USSR appeared ONLY at the late 1943 - beginning of 1944. In the fall of 1944, conducted flight tests of the first station jamming (project "OP" - anti "canadian radar LW"). Flight tests of the "OP-2" (anti "Würzburg, Freya, Liechtenstein") completed in 1946 - so it never went into production..
Although I may be wrong - I have a one source about it.

regards,
Kirill
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Old 9th September 2015, 20:44
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Thanks Mirek and Kirill

Nice little history of Electronic warfare in the Soviet Union. The point was about "X Gerat" without it bombing Moscow would have been very difficult in July and August, if not very inaccurate.

Thanks again
Oquaig
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Old 11th September 2015, 14:34
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Quote:
Nice little history of Electronic warfare in the Soviet Union. The point was about "X Gerat" without it bombing Moscow would have been very difficult in July and August, if not very inaccurate.
Moscow in 1941 was very big city indeed, and Luftwaffe pilots had know the route to it very well. Many Lufthansa pilot had flown this route before 22.06.41 (Berlin to Moscow and again). So, to find the huge target like Moscow it was not very difficoult for German crews in 1941.

Such tool like "X Gerat" made much more easy precise and in night bombing, but without it German crews would attack Moscow too, with "no problmes".
They could fly and attack in night. They did it many times over "London" in 1940/41.

In August and September 1941 in responce for atttack of Moscow had attacked Soviet bomber crews Berlin with such sophisticated tool and they had found the main traget too (at least 4 times from 9 missions plus 1 more mission done by TB-7 and Yer-2 = 10 missions).

The distance from island Sarema to Berlin was much more longer, then from German airstrips to Moscow. Soviet pilots could find the way in much more difficoult operational conditions in night too. Much route were over the see.

Moscow and Berlin was very big cites indeed, but to find Kremlin in night it was not so easy art. Such tool had helped much in blind flights and precise attack. Without it they could attack too.

regards,
mw.

PS
I am not sure but Moscow had more citisens and area then Berlin in 1941.
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Old 11th September 2015, 19:49
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

The area of Moscow during the war was about 500 km2, with a population of over 4 million people.
For each departure to Moscow, the Luftwaffe lost about 10% of the aircraft (according to the Soviet data).
The first and the largest departure: 127 of 222 aircraft reached the goal (lost 22 aircraft), they dropped 104 tons of high explosive and 46 000 incendiary bombs - a total of 130 killed, 660 injured, destroyed 37 buildings. The German air raids continued until July 16, 1942 - total 2000 killed, 6000 wounded, about 5600 destroyed or damaged buildings.
London losses were higher - if I'm not mistaken? More than 600 fighters of the air defense (20% flew at night) and more than 1,000 barrels of guns is a good jamming.

I also found information about "radar jamming". In 1942 on aircrafts "ADD" appeared detectors radar beam. In 1943, the aircrafts "ADD" used passive jamming (metal tape). Soviet aircraft used radio direction finding. Also in the Soviet army actively used "radio jamming" against the Germans. The radar on the Eastern front, the Germans used a little. Question "radar jamming" became more important when the Soviet army came to Germany (late 1944-1945).

regards,
Kirill
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Old 12th September 2015, 17:19
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Kirche,
the Soviet data has quite large overclaiming rate, If right remember during the first attack (one of the strongest) against Moscow in VII 41, the real Luftwaffe total losses were 3-4 bombers (>60 % of damage). Later were send smaller formations the lack of planes and a lots of "jobs" for a few of them.

If the Soviet data were real Luftwaffe shoud disappered from the sky in 2 months due to the total lack of planes and crews.


The success of German the Natchjagers agains Soviet night bombers (1943-44) very quite high, so the effectivness of these devices were not so high. This night Soviet front was not so important as was over Europe.

regards
mw
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  #10  
Old 13th September 2015, 12:45
Tango Echo Dog Tango Echo Dog is offline
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Re: Did the Soviets ever succeed in jamming the “X-Gerat“ beam

Gentlemen
I have followed the correspondence with some interest and the first question I have to ask is when was X-Geraet used against Moscow?
Given the intermittent nature of Luftwaffe attacks upon the city and the fact it usually involved small forces, it does seem surprising that the Germans would go to this trouble. But I could well be wrong.
I am not aware of any PVO published history mentioning jamming of radars, in fact my impression is the Russians preferred to jam communications.
The one exception, mentioned by Kirill, was the use of 'Window' It appears to have been developed without any Anglo-American input during 1943 but what is not clear is exactly when it was first deployed.
Perhaps Kirill can provide this information
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