A20 shot down end of 1942 near El Alamein

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Z2302 - 24 Sqdn SAAF
27-6-1942
I expect this to have been too early ?
Crew of four ?
Abandoned by the SAAF RSU at LG 11 ( Qasaba) as Axis forces approached, she was subject of an attempted recovery when on 27 June a Boston with a spare pilot and ground crew flew to LG 11. Shells were falling within a few hundred yards as efforts to get the derelict Boston serviceable failed. It was destroyed by the army on 5 July.
Ref: RAF Bomber Losses in the Middle East and Mediterranean, vol1.

Alex

[Kaiyan]

This is a pic of Z2302 there are a series of pic of this aircraft that seem to have been taken over a period of time and various "bits" having been removed, hope it helps.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Great pic of Z2302.
Sure looks like the same a/c as in the earlier post.
But does it compare with the one described in post 1 ?
Alex

[gilles collaveri]

Good morning all

let us try to recap and syntheses:

1. it cannot be Z3202 (an RAF Aircraft) because our picture has US star marking (see attachment) (sorry, I can't show the whole picture because of copyright issues
2. I understand that AL436 MACR51 was seen "plunging in the Sousse harbour": then it is not "our" aircraft, because the picture clearly shows an aircraft crashed on the ground.
3. CF Frank message:

- The second A20 was seen "over the harbour of Sousse". The aircraft on our picture crashed on the ground, in a desertic area, so this should not this one.

- A third A20 was "damaged by Flak and made a forced landing": if the forced landing finished in a crash, we should not exclude this one.
Alex's post:

4. it could also be 41-3012 December 1942 Frech Marocco;

The scope is reduced but the picture aircraft is not yet formally identified

that's it for the day,

cheers

GC

[Kaiyan]

I also have a pic of a Boston 111 / A 20 that I have been unable to ID might we be trying to ID the same aircraft...???? This clearly not the same one in your first post. regards

[gilles collaveri]

Hi Kaiyan

It is not the same aircraft.

"ours" is totally destroyed.. see attachment (portion of picture).

GC

[Kaiyan]

Interesting Ill keep my eyes open and if any thing comes up I'll post, as to my American I'm told from the source I got the pic from that it attempted a wheels down landing which failed and the damage was caused by a demolition charge may or may not be true.. regards



As a PS.
Your A 20 appears to have a "Tear drop" fairing over the D.F. loop most A 20's I have seen do not so far only seen on a G series, a DB 7 French aircraft and one Russian... may be that will help I.D machine..

[Frank Olynyk]

In order to identify any of these crashes you are going to need one or more of the following: the actual date; the serial number; a crew member name; the actual location of the crash. At present I have 87 A-20 losses in my MTO database, and I haven't started exploring the 47th BG for the period May 1943 to the end of the war. Pictures of scrap aluminum will not suffice. Which does put a damper on the search.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
These are the US A20/Boston type losses in North Africa.

1942.
29-11-42 - 15BS - DB-7 - Crashed near Gafsa hit by flak.
2-12-42 - 85BS/47BG - A20B.
5-12-42 - 15BS - 1Lt. James F. Rutchi - wia.
22-12-42 - 85BS/47BG - 41-3004 - Capt.Marz - MACR 1188.
31-12-42 - DB-7B - 2m NE of Sousse, flak 15.30 - Lt. Dan W. Holiday.
31-12-42 - AL436 - as already discussed." Diving towards Souse Harbor" - MACR 51.
31-12-42 - DB-7B - Shot down in sea near Sousse, 3 kia.

1943
4-1-43 - 97BS/47BG - 41-3153 - Capt. Fly Draper - S/d Nr Fondouk - MACR 14567.
4-1-43 97BS/47BG - 41-3155 - Capt. Clarence A. Martin Jr force landed nr Fondouk.
5-1-43 - 86BS/47BG - 41-3152 - S/Sgt Oral E. Edwards Kia.
7-1-43 - 154OS/68OG - A20 - FTR - Capt. Clyde A. Knapp - Mia.
11-1-43 - 85BS/47BG - 41-3175 - DBR at Thelepte.
11-1-43 - 97BS/47BG - 41-3006 - Destroyed on ground at Thelepte.
12-1-43 - 27BS/47BG - 41-3161 Damaged on ground.
14-1-43 - 97BS/47BG - 41-3153 - Capt. Fly Draper - S/d at Cherichera [ But see 4-1-43 above ? ].
16-1-43 - 41-3171 lost to enemy action.
16-1-43 - 41-3348 lost to enemy action.
18-1-43 - 122OS/68OG - 41-3164 Lt. Donald Briggs.
28-1-43 - Three a/c of the 47 BG destroyed on the ground.
29-1-43 - 26BS/47BG - A20B - Crashed and exploded on t/o - Capt. Howard B. Simpson.

Are any more A20/Boston US losses known for this time frame
Alex

Ref - Mediterranean Air War vol 3.

[Kaiyan]

Would the DB-7's have been carrying US markings?