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Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation after the Second World War. |
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Might find this interview interesting
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#2
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
Very interesting indeed. The compilers and editor of that interview should be congratulated, and thanks for posting it. In case it's of use to them (if they come across it) or anyone else, I'd comment in detail on the appendix about confirmation of Zabelin's victories in Korea, as follows:
First, a general source for US losses in Korea, as many know already, is: http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmkor/korwald.htm I'll call it "K". But K can't be entirely relied on to do matching of claims because it doesn't give times usually, and it doesn't discuss the fate of damaged a/c, which some authors seem to assume were 'losses' but that was seldom true. Also a lot of incidents of damage are omitted or on the the wrong days, in contrast to outright loss info which is much more accurate. March 16, 1952: the loss of 50-668 was definitely the 15th not 16th. It's clear from the 5th AF's Daily Loss Damaged and Abortive A/c File ("Loss Rep") and the a/c's Individual A/c Record Card ("IARC"), so the attribution to weather/operational makes sense: no air combats that day in poor weather. On the 16th there were 8 Soviet credits for F-86's, but no recorded losses. April 2, 1952: 50-632 listed as Zabelin’s target was damaged April 1 per Loss Rep (served postwar per its IARC). On April 2, 50-592 was lost (1Lt Joe Cannon, rescued), in a combat at 1735I pre the 5th AF Periodic Intelligence Report (“Perintrep”) dated April 3, describing the combats of April 2. 50-602 was hit at 1020I by a 23mm shell causing hydraulic failure so major damage when the nose gear collapsed on landing (returned to service per IARC). Of the 5 Soviet credits this day, two were in the morning, but that of the 494th IAP was recorded at 1640 Beijing (ie. 1740I) and those of the 821st IAP (including Zabelin’s) in the window 1740-1805I, so one of the three probably corresponds to the loss, but there is no way to tell which, with any information I know. April 6: as the editor says, 5 Soviet F-86 credits, no F-86 losses. 49-1218 suffered major damage from landing gear collapse (served postwar). April 13: The editor says 2 F-86’s were downed of which one was 50-636, but actually 50-636, piloted by Maj. George Wendling, was the only F-86 lost that day, 1015-1030I, per the Perintrep. Wendling’s loss therefore matches the claim of the 494th IAP recorded at 1018-1025I, whereas Zabelin’s (826th IAP) and the 16th IAP’s claim were both recorded around 0640I. Separate actions with MiG’s around 0640I are mentioned in the Perintrep, and F-86A 49-1316 was damaged (returned to service) in still another combat around 0700I. No victory can be confirmed for Zabelin on this date. May 17: the editor mentions 6 F-84 credits by the Soviets but I believe there were 7, 6 of them by the 821st IAP but all 7 were at around 0620-0630I. All 4 actual F-84 losses were at around that time (3 outright losses listed in K, and 50-1230’s IARC shows it was written off as a result of combat damage). May 20: as the editor says, one Soviet credit, one US loss, and moreover Zabelin’s claim was recorded at 1320I and Lane’s loss in a combat starting at 1315I, so this is a pretty certain match. May 21: The editor says 2 F-86’s were downed but 50-689 (1Lt Charles Kerr, POW) was the only one, in a combat starting at 1315I. The 3 credits of the 821st IAP were all in the period 1315-1330I so they all match, no way to tell who scored the victory. July 20: Again the editor mentions 2 losses but only, 51-2828 (1st Lt John Ellis, POW) was lost, at 1706. All 4 Soviet credits are in the time range 1712-1725. So reviewing the 9 credits by date: March 16: no April 2: possible, 1 loss w/ 3 closely matching claims, .333 on a pro-rated basis. April 6 (2 credits): no April 13: no May 17: probable, 4 losses, 7 matching claims, .571 pro-rated May 20: yes, 1 fully confirmed victory May 21: possible, 1 loss, 3 matching claims, .333 pro-rated July 20: possible, 1 loss, 4 matching claims, .25 pro-rated. Max possible score: 5, min possible: 1, pro-rated:~2.5. The possibility of PLAAF or NK claims or victories is being neglected, but my approximately half complete list of individual Chinese credits doesn’t include any on those particular dates. Again, that's a very interesting and valuable article. Joe |
#3
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
Thank's for a review. What if we will include F-84's as misidentified airplanes?
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#4
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
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#5
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
Most interesting. Thank you for providing the links. Would you know if there are similar interviews about pilot reports on different aircraft types?
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#6
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
WWII veterans only, Korea is a "side effect" of my area of interest.
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#7
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
Quote:
Of course in some cases there are US reports of combats not recorded by the Soviets themselves, but those are explained already or presumably will be eventually, by detailed PLAAF and NK accounts. Joe |
#8
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
Quote:
Quote:
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#9
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Re: Might find this interview interesting
The daily summary of 64th IAK (version I have) says Zabelin downed Ellis, by name, but then that's lined through and at the end of the report it says Ellis was pilot of one plane, but pilot of 15/24-00-1 (written that way) was killed, and they were searching for wreckage of a third.
However the wreck report confirming Zabelin's victory says the pilot of the 1524001 (written that way) ejected and was arrested by Korean police, then provides the following wreck evidence: -a calibration card from an altimeter -two unknown equipment nameplates both of which have type F-86E but are for some particular part, might have serial number 1524001, not legible enough to say, but that's obviously not a whole USAF a/c's serial number -photo of wreck sight showing nothing definitive -a short 'confirmation' report from NK Interior Ministry (Korean original and Russian translation; I'm going from the Korean version) which describes a crash at that location and time, says nothing about a pilot. In summary there is no evidence that the a/c in the wreck report was other than Ellis' plane 51-2828 (not 49-2828 which was an L-18 observation plane), nor any other tangible Soviet evidence of any other F-86, v multiple forms of then-secret USAF reports saying 51-2828 was the only a/c lost. The final Soviet summary of victories has four in this time window rather than 3 in the daily summary, but two are possible duplicates, with pilot said to be captured same exact time and place in two different entries in the list (no names given in either); one crashed offshore, one wreck site was inaccessible. And there's really no evidence Zabelin was responsible for the wreck in the report, almost surely 51-2828, rather than one of the other Soviet pilots credited at the same time and place. How could a wreck team, or the original Korean (or PLA) observers on the ground possibly tell who downed a crashed plane among several pilots claiming at the same time and place? So I don't apportion victories based on whose victory was supported by a wreck report v. whose victory was said to crash offshore etc, but prorate by claims v losses which occurred at about the same place and time. Before I said 1/4 for Zabelin in this case; maybe it should be 1/3 due to the conflicting evidence whether 3 or 4 victories were awarded. Joe |
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